1 00:00:22,550 --> 00:00:06,070 [Music] 2 00:00:26,710 --> 00:00:25,029 welcome back to liminal frames i'm 3 00:00:28,310 --> 00:00:26,720 nathan and i'm joined 4 00:00:31,269 --> 00:00:28,320 by my co-host 5 00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:31,279 darren exo academia darren 6 00:00:34,709 --> 00:00:33,120 how are you how was your week 7 00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:34,719 what's going on 8 00:00:39,190 --> 00:00:36,800 i'm doing well thank you i had a a 9 00:00:41,430 --> 00:00:39,200 pretty intense week um 10 00:00:44,709 --> 00:00:41,440 you know just a lot of uh 11 00:00:46,150 --> 00:00:44,719 communication downloads um and uh trying 12 00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:46,160 to incorporate that into my 13 00:00:49,510 --> 00:00:47,760 understanding of 14 00:00:52,709 --> 00:00:49,520 the phenomenon and reality and all of 15 00:00:54,150 --> 00:00:52,719 that no small task um 16 00:00:56,310 --> 00:00:54,160 so yeah that's just sort of my honest 17 00:00:58,470 --> 00:00:56,320 answer to what my week's been like but 18 00:01:00,069 --> 00:00:58,480 it was powerful and um 19 00:01:01,189 --> 00:01:00,079 moving forward trying to make sense of 20 00:01:04,070 --> 00:01:01,199 it 21 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:04,080 sounds like to me 22 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:05,760 uh 23 00:01:08,469 --> 00:01:07,040 that's great 24 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:08,479 well it's uh it's definitely been an 25 00:01:12,469 --> 00:01:11,280 interesting week and the energy has been 26 00:01:14,710 --> 00:01:12,479 uh 27 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:14,720 in some ways 28 00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:16,400 at least for me kind of muted but in 29 00:01:20,469 --> 00:01:18,400 other ways because i you know know folks 30 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:20,479 like you are going through a lot of 31 00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:22,240 uh sort of intense research and 32 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:25,040 discovery you know i'm kind of getting a 33 00:01:30,230 --> 00:01:28,000 little bit of that through osmosis 34 00:01:31,590 --> 00:01:30,240 which is exciting and 35 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:31,600 you know with some things that are 36 00:01:34,469 --> 00:01:33,360 coming up on the horizon i think that 37 00:01:38,469 --> 00:01:34,479 the 38 00:01:40,390 --> 00:01:38,479 at least in in our circle seems to be 39 00:01:42,149 --> 00:01:40,400 shifting a little bit 40 00:01:43,749 --> 00:01:42,159 from 41 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:43,759 some of the traditional ways that we've 42 00:01:47,350 --> 00:01:45,920 engaged on this topic through social 43 00:01:50,149 --> 00:01:47,360 media to 44 00:01:52,069 --> 00:01:50,159 kind of more interpersonal ways and 45 00:01:55,109 --> 00:01:52,079 even more academic 46 00:01:56,469 --> 00:01:55,119 ways of looking at this topic and where 47 00:01:57,910 --> 00:01:56,479 it might be going 48 00:01:59,190 --> 00:01:57,920 and 49 00:02:00,789 --> 00:01:59,200 i don't know if you've kind of felt that 50 00:02:02,389 --> 00:02:00,799 same sense 51 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:02,399 yeah no that's that's true actually and 52 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:04,960 it's interesting that both those gears 53 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:07,360 are kind of kicking in so you've got 54 00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:09,360 definitely the more interpersonal people 55 00:02:13,589 --> 00:02:12,000 meeting in person and uh 56 00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:13,599 either doing like virtual groups 57 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:15,040 together like we did one of those over 58 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:17,760 the summer with a couple people um which 59 00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:19,360 is really great but then on top of that 60 00:02:22,229 --> 00:02:20,720 you've got you know different events 61 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:22,239 where people actually are gathering in 62 00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:23,280 person 63 00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:24,800 uh which 64 00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:25,920 you know it's just so much more 65 00:02:29,030 --> 00:02:27,200 rewarding because you're really having 66 00:02:30,229 --> 00:02:29,040 that sort of 3d interaction with another 67 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:30,239 human being 68 00:02:35,110 --> 00:02:32,160 and seeing the fullness of even how this 69 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:35,120 phenomenon has impacted people and 70 00:02:38,949 --> 00:02:37,280 who they are in in the fullness of of 71 00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:38,959 their personhood 72 00:02:43,670 --> 00:02:41,920 but then on top of that yeah you have um 73 00:02:45,670 --> 00:02:43,680 as as things begin to crack in the 74 00:02:47,509 --> 00:02:45,680 mainstream a little bit at a time 75 00:02:50,150 --> 00:02:47,519 you're getting more and more people who 76 00:02:52,790 --> 00:02:50,160 are coming from academic circles or more 77 00:02:55,430 --> 00:02:52,800 the left brain critical thinking 78 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:55,440 style uh people who are saying there 79 00:02:58,550 --> 00:02:57,120 seems to be some data here that's worth 80 00:03:00,150 --> 00:02:58,560 looking into 81 00:03:02,869 --> 00:03:00,160 without jumping to conclusions about 82 00:03:04,309 --> 00:03:02,879 what it means or what they are 83 00:03:06,229 --> 00:03:04,319 so that seems to be happening as well 84 00:03:07,589 --> 00:03:06,239 and it's an interesting uh 85 00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:07,599 interesting situation that both those 86 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:10,480 gears are kicking in at the same time 87 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:11,680 for sure 88 00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:13,840 there's the sense in which this mystery 89 00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:16,840 has become more real and 90 00:03:21,830 --> 00:03:19,440 the uh attention 91 00:03:24,070 --> 00:03:21,840 and the awareness that is now directing 92 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:24,080 in that to that mystery trying to 93 00:03:28,229 --> 00:03:26,000 understand what it is 94 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:28,239 uh is really creating a lot of positive 95 00:03:32,949 --> 00:03:30,400 energy a lot of excitement 96 00:03:35,350 --> 00:03:32,959 from folks that you know quite frankly 97 00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:35,360 may have felt fairly stale in 98 00:03:39,750 --> 00:03:37,440 their own academic journey 99 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:39,760 uh or or their own personal journey that 100 00:03:42,630 --> 00:03:41,280 this is something that 101 00:03:44,869 --> 00:03:42,640 really does 102 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:44,879 kind of animate us when we turn our 103 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:46,640 attention to it if we if we take it 104 00:03:50,309 --> 00:03:48,400 seriously and that's something that i 105 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:50,319 think we're going to touch on 106 00:03:53,830 --> 00:03:52,480 in this episode today 107 00:03:56,390 --> 00:03:53,840 and looking at 108 00:03:59,589 --> 00:03:56,400 the in a kind of very macro way 109 00:04:01,509 --> 00:03:59,599 the history of humanity's interaction 110 00:04:04,229 --> 00:04:01,519 with this grand mystery 111 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:04,239 uh with non-human intelligence both 112 00:04:08,309 --> 00:04:05,760 the kind of non-human intelligence 113 00:04:10,869 --> 00:04:08,319 that's here on the earth uh and then 114 00:04:14,710 --> 00:04:10,879 elsewhere and everywhere in between and 115 00:04:16,550 --> 00:04:14,720 how that has kind of directed 116 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:16,560 our experience our experience of 117 00:04:19,590 --> 00:04:18,560 ourselves as the individual and our 118 00:04:21,990 --> 00:04:19,600 experience 119 00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:22,000 with one another as a as a collective 120 00:04:27,189 --> 00:04:24,080 and in societies and so we're going to 121 00:04:28,710 --> 00:04:27,199 explore the contours of that and i hope 122 00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:28,720 through that exploration just kind of 123 00:04:31,270 --> 00:04:30,000 get a 124 00:04:32,870 --> 00:04:31,280 a little bit of a sense of where we 125 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:32,880 might be going it helps sometimes to 126 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:34,080 look back 127 00:04:37,909 --> 00:04:36,000 to really figure out where you are and 128 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:37,919 then where you might be headed 129 00:04:41,749 --> 00:04:39,440 so with that being said why don't we 130 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:41,759 start with kind of looking back uh we're 131 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:43,680 gonna look back at some of the 132 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:45,520 the old human history 133 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:47,440 maybe that even predates 134 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:50,320 uh the the history that um that we're 135 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:52,720 most familiar with the rise of you know 136 00:04:57,510 --> 00:04:54,400 civilizations 137 00:04:59,749 --> 00:04:57,520 and you know what are some ways that 138 00:05:01,670 --> 00:04:59,759 when you think about that period 139 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:01,680 i guess the prehistoric time 140 00:05:06,629 --> 00:05:04,080 uh of humanity what are 141 00:05:09,270 --> 00:05:06,639 some ways you think about 142 00:05:11,189 --> 00:05:09,280 human beings in human culture and how 143 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:11,199 they were relating with other 144 00:05:15,189 --> 00:05:13,120 intelligences other non-human 145 00:05:17,029 --> 00:05:15,199 intelligences and and for me i can start 146 00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:17,039 with a very fundamental 147 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:19,120 analysis that doesn't even involve 148 00:05:23,110 --> 00:05:20,240 anything 149 00:05:24,870 --> 00:05:23,120 uh phenomenological or 150 00:05:27,110 --> 00:05:24,880 you know aliens or ufological or 151 00:05:28,950 --> 00:05:27,120 anything but just the very mere fact of 152 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:28,960 human beings being present 153 00:05:34,230 --> 00:05:31,680 in a rich tapestry of life 154 00:05:36,629 --> 00:05:34,240 uh a lot of which was trying to kill you 155 00:05:37,510 --> 00:05:36,639 any given moment and certainly wasn't 156 00:05:39,110 --> 00:05:37,520 dumb 157 00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:39,120 there were plenty of very intelligent 158 00:05:44,230 --> 00:05:41,919 creatures um and i'll remind folks 159 00:05:46,790 --> 00:05:44,240 including other human species 160 00:05:50,469 --> 00:05:46,800 that we were sharing the planet with and 161 00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:50,479 the very presence of those intelligences 162 00:05:54,469 --> 00:05:52,400 impacts and changes 163 00:05:57,430 --> 00:05:54,479 the way in which we behave the way we 164 00:05:58,629 --> 00:05:57,440 order ourselves the way we uh plan for 165 00:05:59,510 --> 00:05:58,639 the future 166 00:06:01,270 --> 00:05:59,520 um 167 00:06:04,309 --> 00:06:01,280 there is this friction 168 00:06:06,629 --> 00:06:04,319 this kind of a healthy friction that is 169 00:06:09,590 --> 00:06:06,639 created in the interplay 170 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:09,600 between those different types of beings 171 00:06:12,870 --> 00:06:10,880 but i don't know if you how do you think 172 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:12,880 about that that kind of prehistoric time 173 00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:14,800 and and how those influences may have 174 00:06:18,790 --> 00:06:17,440 shaped us and who we are 175 00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:18,800 yeah it's interesting because i think 176 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:21,360 there's definitely been a trade-off and 177 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:24,160 i often find people either 178 00:06:27,749 --> 00:06:26,080 kind of have a highly romantic view of 179 00:06:29,909 --> 00:06:27,759 the way things were back then when you 180 00:06:31,430 --> 00:06:29,919 were living so close to nature 181 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:31,440 and other people on the other side of 182 00:06:34,950 --> 00:06:32,960 the spectrum see it as like you know 183 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:34,960 horrific and barbaric and 184 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:37,120 primitive and uh 185 00:06:41,350 --> 00:06:39,280 you know short life spans and 186 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:41,360 disease and difficulty just knowing 187 00:06:44,550 --> 00:06:42,720 where your next meal was coming from all 188 00:06:47,029 --> 00:06:44,560 that's true as well i think both of 189 00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:47,039 those are true 190 00:06:49,670 --> 00:06:48,240 before we went on the air we were 191 00:06:51,590 --> 00:06:49,680 talking about how 192 00:06:52,950 --> 00:06:51,600 um you know technological development 193 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:52,960 does not equal 194 00:06:57,830 --> 00:06:55,440 uh your quality of life and there are 195 00:07:00,309 --> 00:06:57,840 some people that are living in mud huts 196 00:07:01,670 --> 00:07:00,319 in tribal zones that 197 00:07:04,469 --> 00:07:01,680 have a better quality of life because 198 00:07:06,870 --> 00:07:04,479 they have more of a raw authentic 199 00:07:08,950 --> 00:07:06,880 fully alive experience of of being a 200 00:07:10,950 --> 00:07:08,960 human being than someone who's caught up 201 00:07:12,469 --> 00:07:10,960 in like a corporate rat race and lives 202 00:07:14,309 --> 00:07:12,479 in a nice house and drives a nice car 203 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:14,319 but doesn't really they're not in love 204 00:07:19,029 --> 00:07:16,800 with life right that's i think one of 205 00:07:21,189 --> 00:07:19,039 the the the trade-offs that 206 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:21,199 our culture is trying to to reckon with 207 00:07:24,710 --> 00:07:22,800 and it's creating all sorts of shadow in 208 00:07:27,749 --> 00:07:24,720 our culture because people are 209 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:27,759 are not feeling that vital aliveness 210 00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:29,520 uh but another thing i think about when 211 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:31,440 i think about you know 212 00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:34,240 prehistory and really primitive man 213 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:36,080 is that um 214 00:07:40,150 --> 00:07:38,800 kind of just like how a child 215 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:40,160 hasn't fully 216 00:07:43,430 --> 00:07:41,840 separated themselves from the world 217 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:43,440 they're in right they don't they don't 218 00:07:46,150 --> 00:07:44,400 fully 219 00:07:47,749 --> 00:07:46,160 recognize that they're a separate being 220 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:47,759 so they they cover their eyes and they 221 00:07:51,749 --> 00:07:50,080 think the world just shuts down right um 222 00:07:53,830 --> 00:07:51,759 goes black entirely 223 00:07:56,230 --> 00:07:53,840 uh in the same way primitive man kind of 224 00:07:58,070 --> 00:07:56,240 was that way right like they they had 225 00:08:00,950 --> 00:07:58,080 you know an understanding of um kind of 226 00:08:04,309 --> 00:08:00,960 being part and parcel with nature and 227 00:08:06,309 --> 00:08:04,319 not really segmented and separate from 228 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:06,319 and that created some problems but it 229 00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:08,560 also created i think kind of a 230 00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:12,000 a magical connection that inevitably 231 00:08:17,189 --> 00:08:14,879 allowed them to probably even have some 232 00:08:19,029 --> 00:08:17,199 psy capacities that we don't have you 233 00:08:21,029 --> 00:08:19,039 know i know that i've mentioned 234 00:08:23,189 --> 00:08:21,039 when i was talking with joe mcmonagle a 235 00:08:24,469 --> 00:08:23,199 few months ago he mentioned how 236 00:08:26,950 --> 00:08:24,479 he believes 237 00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:26,960 you know side capacities uh around for 238 00:08:30,469 --> 00:08:28,400 instance you know knowing what's going 239 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:30,479 to happen in various ways 240 00:08:34,070 --> 00:08:32,880 is tied to like survival skills that 241 00:08:35,029 --> 00:08:34,080 when you're living in an environment 242 00:08:37,029 --> 00:08:35,039 where 243 00:08:40,469 --> 00:08:37,039 there could be a lion behind that tree 244 00:08:41,589 --> 00:08:40,479 you need that sixth sense right which uh 245 00:08:43,750 --> 00:08:41,599 people like him will actually call the 246 00:08:45,670 --> 00:08:43,760 first sense because in primitive man 247 00:08:46,870 --> 00:08:45,680 that may have been there initially and 248 00:08:49,269 --> 00:08:46,880 then if we as we've developed 249 00:08:51,670 --> 00:08:49,279 civilization around us in a safety net 250 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:51,680 one of the trade-offs may have been that 251 00:08:55,990 --> 00:08:53,680 we've lost some of that psi capacity 252 00:08:58,310 --> 00:08:56,000 because we don't need it and so we don't 253 00:09:00,070 --> 00:08:58,320 develop it as young children and that's 254 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:00,080 one of the trade-offs so 255 00:09:02,710 --> 00:09:01,210 i definitely think 256 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:02,720 [Music] 257 00:09:06,550 --> 00:09:04,640 the depiction of what life was like then 258 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:06,560 as opposed to now is often more 259 00:09:15,670 --> 00:09:11,670 yeah 260 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:15,680 all of the things that we've surrounded 261 00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:17,360 ourselves with now 262 00:09:20,230 --> 00:09:19,120 really have in fact dulled our our 263 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:20,240 senses 264 00:09:25,269 --> 00:09:22,560 uh that we've not just we've not needed 265 00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:25,279 to rely on those things any longer uh so 266 00:09:29,509 --> 00:09:27,920 that kind of deep connectivity 267 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:29,519 uh to the world 268 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:31,680 maybe that lack of separateness uh 269 00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:32,880 between 270 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:34,959 the human individual and the world they 271 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:36,640 find themselves in 272 00:09:40,230 --> 00:09:38,640 has its own sort of power 273 00:09:42,870 --> 00:09:40,240 particularly in how they 274 00:09:45,509 --> 00:09:42,880 uh construct their model of the world 275 00:09:47,590 --> 00:09:45,519 right so we have uh 276 00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:47,600 and we don't think about this very often 277 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:49,839 perhaps but our models of the world 278 00:09:54,070 --> 00:09:52,240 include things like houses and offices 279 00:09:55,190 --> 00:09:54,080 and cars and you know structures in 280 00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:55,200 which we 281 00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:58,080 are we've created them uh we they're 282 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:00,320 very you know geometric uh they're not 283 00:10:04,070 --> 00:10:02,320 very organic 284 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:04,080 and we feel quite safe in those 285 00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:05,600 structures usually 286 00:10:08,949 --> 00:10:06,640 um 287 00:10:10,389 --> 00:10:08,959 and to imagine a world that doesn't have 288 00:10:12,070 --> 00:10:10,399 those kinds of things least 289 00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:12,080 predominantly where we 290 00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:14,000 navigate with our feet on the ground our 291 00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:16,160 connection to the earth and you know 292 00:10:19,910 --> 00:10:17,680 we're listening to the sounds and and 293 00:10:22,069 --> 00:10:19,920 knowing where's where is danger where's 294 00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:22,079 our next meal going to be coming from 295 00:10:26,069 --> 00:10:23,760 you know that's a totally different 296 00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:26,079 landscape and a different model that 297 00:10:29,269 --> 00:10:27,200 exists 298 00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:29,279 than than what we are familiar with so 299 00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:30,880 it would be completely foreign to you 300 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:32,640 and if we were to kind of try to imagine 301 00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:34,800 what that would be like for those early 302 00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:36,320 humans 303 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:38,000 yeah and i think uh 304 00:10:42,069 --> 00:10:39,760 but again for all those those modern 305 00:10:44,069 --> 00:10:42,079 marvels i think you know 306 00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:44,079 there's a reason why people 307 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:46,000 are drawn to the idea of going living in 308 00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:48,560 a on a you know a farm 309 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:50,079 where they're supposed to live like it's 310 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:51,600 you know the 18th century and they 311 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:53,120 surrender their phone when they get to 312 00:10:56,470 --> 00:10:54,480 the front door 313 00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:56,480 and you know they they work for six 314 00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:58,959 hours a day on the land and then 315 00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:01,600 don't have tv or internet or anything to 316 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:02,560 uh 317 00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:04,720 to distract them right and i think some 318 00:11:08,949 --> 00:11:06,880 people are overwhelmed by that notion 319 00:11:11,350 --> 00:11:08,959 because we've 320 00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:11,360 we've kind of you know numbed ourselves 321 00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:13,519 with constant streaming entertainment 322 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:16,079 right constant distraction 323 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:17,440 and 324 00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:19,600 we've so divorced ourselves from that 325 00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:22,399 feeling of vital aliveness 326 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,040 both deeply in touch with who we are 327 00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,120 at our deepest level but also 328 00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:29,279 what's available to us in the 329 00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:30,800 consciousness all around us in the 330 00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,320 natural world 331 00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,560 as we've lost more and more touch with 332 00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:36,959 that we've filled the gap 333 00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:40,079 with um distraction right and 334 00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:43,040 um you know it's it wasn't that long ago 335 00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:44,880 that you had to wait 336 00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:46,399 until a tuesday night to watch your 337 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:48,399 favorite show right now you can just 338 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:49,120 like 339 00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:50,880 you know stream 340 00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:53,200 seven epis or seven seasons of episodes 341 00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:54,079 right 342 00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,600 uh in two weeks and then you just go to 343 00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,839 find the next thing the next fix right 344 00:12:02,550 --> 00:11:59,680 on the one hand that makes us feel 345 00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:02,560 fulfilled but i think one of the things 346 00:12:06,629 --> 00:12:04,480 we really need to do is 347 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,639 develop the discernment to know am i 348 00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:08,880 really feeling fulfilled or am i feeling 349 00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,600 distracted or entertained in the same 350 00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:13,200 way that you know the lions in the 351 00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:15,920 coliseum uh was entertainment to people 352 00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:17,680 even though it's kind of horrific like 353 00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:21,040 to really know that difference to really 354 00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:22,320 um 355 00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:25,600 not be so completely of this world right 356 00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:27,839 that we have lost touch with what it 357 00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:29,519 might look like if it was different and 358 00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:31,839 what have we lost perhaps in the midst 359 00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:34,800 of the many things that we've gained 360 00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,720 that's right i mean we've in many ways 361 00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,880 created approximations of those things 362 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,120 we've created a approximations of danger 363 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,200 that aren't dangerous but they 364 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,200 may in fact make us feel a sense of 365 00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:47,120 danger 366 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:48,320 and 367 00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,000 there are many conversations happening 368 00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,399 now i think where we look at uh the 369 00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:54,399 level of anxiety in human beings and 370 00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:55,120 it's 371 00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,880 i mean we've created too many 372 00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:59,040 approximations of danger that there's 373 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,800 you know these sort of false stressors 374 00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:02,560 that that are everywhere that we can't 375 00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,949 and the same thing with food right we've 376 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:08,959 created approximations of food that's 377 00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:11,120 nutritious you know we've manufactured 378 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:11,920 this 379 00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,800 uh kind of food to feed us and it often 380 00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:17,120 ends up being quite empty uh from 381 00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:18,639 nutritional value 382 00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:20,880 but how did the 383 00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:22,959 you know as the human beings kind of 384 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:24,480 began to 385 00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:27,200 to sort of organize themselves or you 386 00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,360 know we would call it progress and you 387 00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:31,040 know we can debate whether that's really 388 00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:32,800 true or not 389 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:35,680 what were in your mind some of the ways 390 00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:40,870 that what were some of the drivers for 391 00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,480 for that progression like what why 392 00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,480 why did we get from there to here you 393 00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:49,040 know why not just forever remain in a 394 00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:50,720 kind of state of prehistory you know was 395 00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:52,079 it something that 396 00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:54,399 in your view uh there was an impetus for 397 00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:55,920 that change that 398 00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:57,839 you know kind of came from outside the 399 00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:58,800 system 400 00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,120 uh was it uh 401 00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:03,120 you know kind of an accidental discovery 402 00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:04,800 that just really 403 00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,279 caused us to 404 00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:09,920 change our behavior and kind of 405 00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:11,920 our entire you know social structure you 406 00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:14,079 know what where do those kind of forces 407 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,240 come from how do you think of that well 408 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,240 i think i think of it at least twofold 409 00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,680 in the sense that 410 00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:21,440 as i mentioned before in this podcast 411 00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:22,959 one thing i noticed when you look back 412 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:24,560 at human history 413 00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:27,360 is how often we pendulum swing so we in 414 00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:29,279 trying to overcome a certain deficit in 415 00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:31,199 one area we tend to 416 00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,959 uh swing over swing over correct right 417 00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:36,399 like when you're driving and you hit a 418 00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:38,000 snowy patch and you slide a bit you 419 00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,279 suddenly you know swing the wheel too 420 00:14:43,030 --> 00:14:41,279 much and you end up fishtailing because 421 00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:43,040 you've over corrected i think we do that 422 00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,800 time and time again and 423 00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:46,079 a lot of the 424 00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:48,320 what we're seeing in the modern era is 425 00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,079 um with scientism is a reaction to the 426 00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:54,800 excesses of the you know christendom 427 00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:56,320 right when the church kind of ruled the 428 00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:57,279 land 429 00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:58,959 there was definitely some negatives that 430 00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,240 came with that when it was at the height 431 00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:02,000 of its power and kind of like high on 432 00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:03,760 its power 433 00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:06,560 and became corrupted absolutely as often 434 00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:08,160 happens with any kind of institution at 435 00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,199 that level of success and power 436 00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,440 but we now have swung the other way but 437 00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:14,800 when i think back to all of the 438 00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:16,800 iterations of human history i think 439 00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:18,399 that's happened you know like it made 440 00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,760 sense to 441 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:22,320 go from hunter-gatherers to suddenly 442 00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:23,600 saying 443 00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:25,199 wait a second if we just stop here where 444 00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:26,560 we have this water source and there's 445 00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:28,639 plenty of game nearby and we 446 00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:29,519 we 447 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,320 you know 448 00:15:33,509 --> 00:15:31,920 have people do different tasks rather 449 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:33,519 than everyone doing the same task we can 450 00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:36,880 actually band together and and make life 451 00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:39,279 uh you know more prosperous and we can 452 00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:41,199 grow enough food that we do know where 453 00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,279 our food's coming from tomorrow it's not 454 00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:45,279 this mystery um 455 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,720 and so you trade off a little bit of 456 00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,480 that sense of um 457 00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:50,880 aliveness every day but the same time 458 00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:53,120 you have that that safety now that comes 459 00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:56,000 the safety net of being with others and 460 00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,199 knowing where your food is going to come 461 00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:59,440 from at least until you know 462 00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:01,600 you think a god wipes it out because of 463 00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:04,880 a hurricane or something 464 00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:06,639 but i think an interesting piece in 465 00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:09,360 addition to our pendulum swinging 466 00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:11,360 based on what we value versus what we 467 00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:12,399 fear 468 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,279 um 469 00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:15,600 there's also the question of related to 470 00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:18,399 what we often talk talk about here is on 471 00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:20,000 this podcast is 472 00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:22,079 to what degree did various non-human 473 00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:23,600 intelligences 474 00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,759 impact human history and make us go one 475 00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:27,600 direction rather than another 476 00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:28,399 um 477 00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:34,320 and i think that's 478 00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,279 sort of the untold uh story you know 479 00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:38,720 when you look at how 480 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:40,959 we read history now um 481 00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,360 we look back and we read about you know 482 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:45,600 primitive people who were freaked out 483 00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:47,920 about whether it was going to 484 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:49,440 thunder and lightning tomorrow and so 485 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:52,160 they made up ideas about gods that 486 00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,320 control those powers so they could feel 487 00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:56,399 a greater sense of agency 488 00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:58,240 because they could uh 489 00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:00,880 lobby those gods just like we might 490 00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,240 lobby congress um to change the outcome 491 00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:07,199 uh but i think that's a really uh 492 00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,160 narrow 493 00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:10,799 inaccurate um and skewed view based on 494 00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:11,919 our current 495 00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:15,120 way we value uh one thing over another 496 00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:16,959 and that there actually were real 497 00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,240 interactions with non-human 498 00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:20,480 intelligences and again to some degree i 499 00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:22,079 think when you had that 500 00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:23,600 closer 501 00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,240 relationship with nature with 502 00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,880 it's like the the the vital energies of 503 00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,799 of the 504 00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,480 underlying structure of reality i think 505 00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:34,799 they actually were actually perceiving 506 00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:36,160 things interacting with things 507 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:38,000 differently than we do now things that 508 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:39,360 we've lost 509 00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,640 um and it doesn't necessarily have to be 510 00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,960 you know a group of extraterrestrials 511 00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:46,799 flying here on spaceships landing and 512 00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:48,880 saying let's let's show you how you do 513 00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,280 accounting and uh you know mathematics 514 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:53,360 and how you build an aqueduct you know 515 00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:55,120 it can be 516 00:18:02,549 --> 00:17:58,640 something like in that ability to 517 00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:03,590 channel 518 00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,640 these different intelligences by going 519 00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:09,039 within rather than going without or 520 00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:10,559 rather than those other things coming 521 00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:11,679 here 522 00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:12,840 i think some of those early 523 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:15,440 civilizations you look like at ancient 524 00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,039 sumeria and whatnot 525 00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:19,200 it may be more of been a channeling with 526 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:21,039 some sort of higher intelligence which 527 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:22,480 may have been extraterrestrial or may 528 00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:24,160 have been more interdimensional doesn't 529 00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:25,600 really matter i think to some degree 530 00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:27,520 those are misnomers when we separate 531 00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:28,400 those 532 00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:31,120 but there seems to be evidence where 533 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:32,799 certain civilizations took a leap 534 00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,200 forward that you begs the question where 535 00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:37,440 did that influence come from that made 536 00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,720 them suddenly 537 00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:41,039 be a thousand years ahead of everybody 538 00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,120 else all the other you know people 539 00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,440 groups around the planet and i think 540 00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,039 there's definitely evidence pointing in 541 00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:49,039 that direction that there is actually 542 00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:50,400 interaction with these other 543 00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,919 intelligences 544 00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:53,440 which of course then opens up a 545 00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,320 pandora's box of questions around where 546 00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:58,320 did humanity ultimately originally come 547 00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:00,960 from how many times have we been tweaked 548 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:02,559 or enhanced or 549 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,400 encouraged one way or rather than 550 00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,720 another throughout our history but i 551 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,640 think it happens it's happened many 552 00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,480 times and you really can't 553 00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:12,000 think about human history without 554 00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,080 thinking about our relationship with 555 00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:17,039 entities from beyond 556 00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,559 yeah and even if 557 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,400 you kind of take that 558 00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:22,080 uh external 559 00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:23,679 concept and just take it out put it on 560 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:25,039 the side for a second 561 00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,270 the sort of deeper structure of reality 562 00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:33,679 which we've talked about quite a bit 563 00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,360 if you 564 00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,360 take the position that consciousness is 565 00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:39,679 an underlying level 566 00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,679 of experience 567 00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:46,549 there is an ability of intelligence to 568 00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:49,919 kind of to connect into that level to 569 00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,080 use the word you you know to use their 570 00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,720 channel to kind of channel into that 571 00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:56,480 fundamental structure 572 00:20:02,630 --> 00:19:59,440 and then pull out from that structure 573 00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,640 different insights and i think to 574 00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,799 cultures that have done that in a very 575 00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:06,960 kind of ritualistic way 576 00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:09,280 through things like shamanic tradition 577 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:11,360 you know there might be a tribe and a 578 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:12,480 shaman or 579 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:14,160 a shamanic family 580 00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:15,600 that has 581 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:19,520 a set of rituals that are intended to 582 00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:22,720 draw from this well of 583 00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,880 of for lack of a better term weird 584 00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,200 experience or weird esoteric kind of 585 00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,919 knowledge that isn't of the norm 586 00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:31,919 that is outside 587 00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:35,360 the conventional knowledge of that group 588 00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,640 and the ability to do that as you said 589 00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,240 to go in 590 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:42,000 which many of those shamanic traditions 591 00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,760 are adept at doing to go in and pull out 592 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:47,760 and then and then display 593 00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:48,400 to 594 00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:50,240 those that are outside 595 00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,720 and say wrestle with this 596 00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,799 you know i i pulled this out and you and 597 00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:56,720 i'm asking you to wrestle with this 598 00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:57,919 weirdness 599 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:00,840 and in that wrestling it it 600 00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:03,760 creates uh change moments 601 00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,520 for those individuals and their cultures 602 00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,760 yeah and i think too um in light of what 603 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:11,200 we were talking about a few minutes ago 604 00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,400 where 605 00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,320 sometimes skill sets 606 00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:16,320 are 607 00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,200 brought about through need right so 608 00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:22,000 i think that's a big part of it when we 609 00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:24,000 grouped into city centers and and 610 00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:26,480 civilization began to form 611 00:21:30,549 --> 00:21:28,000 because we knew where our food was 612 00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,559 coming the next day we didn't need to 613 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:31,919 have the shaman 614 00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:34,400 channel the spirits to tell us where 615 00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:36,960 where the game or the you know the the 616 00:21:41,669 --> 00:21:38,880 mushroom patch was right 617 00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:41,679 i mean because we didn't have to 618 00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:43,039 over time 619 00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:46,640 we began to trust our sort of left brain 620 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,679 planning kind of uh mentality 621 00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,840 which again brought about many many 622 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:53,440 positive traits 623 00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,360 many many positive outcomes but there 624 00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:57,360 was a trade-off right there's when you 625 00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,840 don't have that visceral need that you 626 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,200 must 627 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,520 find some way to discern 628 00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:05,520 some truth about what you can gather 629 00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:07,760 tomorrow to stay alive 630 00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:09,440 there's no way you can 631 00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:11,760 replicate that 632 00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:13,440 through a video game or you know 633 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:15,520 something modern where it's like we know 634 00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:17,600 there's really no skin in the game when 635 00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:19,200 the skin's really in the game that's 636 00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,400 when you 637 00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:22,799 uh are able to tap into these powers and 638 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:24,240 then actually grow them and that's again 639 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:26,400 what what joe mcmonagle was saying to me 640 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,840 is that you know he grew up in the mean 641 00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,400 streets of miami as i've said before 642 00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,400 where he needed to know what was around 643 00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:33,440 the corner because it could be 644 00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,760 life-threatening and from a very young 645 00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:37,120 age you know kind of being out on the 646 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,919 streets and and needing to protect he 647 00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:41,840 and his sisters 648 00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:45,440 that primitive man uh you know that that 649 00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:48,080 that really ancient human 650 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,480 capacity that is dormant in all of us 651 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,080 right that's what the the evidence 652 00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:54,000 suggests that we all are psychic to some 653 00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,039 degree but it's just dormant 654 00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:59,280 but when it's that muscle is used at a 655 00:23:01,830 --> 00:23:00,559 really young age then it can really 656 00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:01,840 develop and become something quite 657 00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:04,159 profound and i think we underestimate 658 00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:05,679 how much 659 00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:08,240 these uh these various people groups 660 00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:09,840 were actually 661 00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,679 not just making vague guesses and then 662 00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:13,280 calling at the spirits they actually 663 00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,960 were tapping in 664 00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:16,799 to intelligences 665 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,039 and i would say to your point too around 666 00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,200 the consciousness piece 667 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:23,520 you know part of again the bias of the 668 00:23:26,789 --> 00:23:25,520 of the modern world is that 669 00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:26,799 uh 670 00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:29,679 consciousness is a later arising an 671 00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:31,600 emergent property within space time 672 00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,400 right the matter is is fundamental then 673 00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:37,440 way down the uh you know 674 00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:38,880 down the trail you eventually get 675 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:40,880 something called consciousness which to 676 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:43,280 a lot of you know physicalist is kind of 677 00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,400 more of an illusory kind of 678 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:48,320 state but it's not really real 679 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:49,760 ultimately that's kind of where they 680 00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:50,640 land 681 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:52,799 whereas i would say the reality is i 682 00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,960 know both you and i are uh pretty 683 00:23:59,270 --> 00:23:56,559 convinced that the reality is more of 684 00:24:01,750 --> 00:23:59,280 around idealism this sense that space 685 00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:01,760 time is within consciousness so 686 00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:03,440 if that's the case then suddenly you 687 00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:05,520 understand how these shamanic cultures 688 00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:07,600 could and still can 689 00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,679 actually go within 690 00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:11,279 to find 691 00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,480 information of real value because the 692 00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:16,320 space-time construct is actually just 693 00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,120 one of many 694 00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,120 later manifestations that are that are 695 00:24:24,549 --> 00:24:23,600 emergent from this deep consciousness 696 00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:24,559 pool 697 00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,320 and when there's these different 698 00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:28,159 mindscapes dreamscapes that are 699 00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:29,919 overlapping 700 00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:31,840 when you have this capacity to tap into 701 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,640 it you really can gather information 702 00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:36,000 i really think that was happening i 703 00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:37,440 think maybe even some people listening 704 00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:39,679 to this program might be 705 00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,880 curious about that and saying are you 706 00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:42,240 saying that it actually works and i'm 707 00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,919 saying yes this actually works i really 708 00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,520 think it does and 709 00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:47,679 and in light of some stuff i've been you 710 00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:49,360 know tweeting and talking about the last 711 00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:51,360 couple days 712 00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:53,440 i think even in our modern world people 713 00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:55,919 are channeling much more than they ever 714 00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:58,240 realize you know whether it's a a piece 715 00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:00,159 of artwork that someone just gets in 716 00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:02,080 that flow state and it just feels like 717 00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:04,000 that song wrote itself or that poem 718 00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:05,919 wrote itself or that that painting 719 00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:08,559 painted itself i saw it in my mind's eye 720 00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:09,840 i think that's 721 00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:12,840 more of that going on we just we just 722 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,640 re-uh 723 00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:16,320 we find a different way of describing it 724 00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:19,039 that fits with our model of reality 725 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,159 um 726 00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:22,720 but actually when you really begin to 727 00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:24,000 think about things more the way we're 728 00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,760 talking about whether this is a 729 00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:27,200 mindscape 730 00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,840 a shared dream space then you start 731 00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,520 realizing actually it makes more sense 732 00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:33,279 to think that actually you're channeling 733 00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,720 these things from somewhere else and 734 00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:38,559 that's true from everything from great 735 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:41,120 artistic works to 736 00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:44,480 technological innovation as well 737 00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:46,320 i'm glad you brought up that technology 738 00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:48,159 piece because the 739 00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,830 we have attempted to get that knowledge 740 00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:57,360 and and thinking about the shamanic 741 00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,880 tradition and how 742 00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:01,200 those traditions often were later 743 00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:04,400 co-opted by more organized 744 00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:07,440 religious traditions 745 00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:10,559 in underlying that co-op co-option is a 746 00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,520 kind of technological drive to 747 00:26:16,789 --> 00:26:15,360 to take that 748 00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:16,799 messier 749 00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:19,600 form of of information gathering in the 750 00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,360 shamanic way 751 00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,799 and to 752 00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:25,120 control it through 753 00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:27,840 religious ritual and practice and you 754 00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:30,080 know kind of box it in that if we can do 755 00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:30,799 it 756 00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:35,840 a kind of technology a tool in which we 757 00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:38,559 wield over people to 758 00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:41,120 get them to do things we want them to do 759 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,400 you know therein comes the religious 760 00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:46,320 structures and institutions and all 761 00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:47,760 their trappings 762 00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:48,559 uh 763 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:50,880 to to to try to 764 00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:53,200 you know i guess like exert a level of 765 00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:55,520 power and influence over an organized 766 00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:57,279 group of people but what i find 767 00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:59,279 interesting about that and you certainly 768 00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:00,320 are aware of this too with your 769 00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:02,480 religious studies background 770 00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:03,360 is that 771 00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:05,120 no matter how many times we have done 772 00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:07,200 this in human history where we have 773 00:27:11,190 --> 00:27:08,880 tried to 774 00:27:13,269 --> 00:27:11,200 you know kind of 775 00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,279 make these things where we have tried to 776 00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,440 be the masters of these experiences 777 00:27:18,830 --> 00:27:17,679 rather than let the experiences come to 778 00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:18,840 us 779 00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:21,120 inevitably within all of those 780 00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,880 traditions that do that there emerges 781 00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,880 uh this uh sort of 782 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:28,799 uh 783 00:27:33,029 --> 00:27:30,480 prophetic power 784 00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:33,039 that speaks out against 785 00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,520 that religious structure and so it's 786 00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,200 inescapable like as much as we think 787 00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:39,440 we've kind of got it locked down 788 00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,200 and we you know we have this tradition 789 00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:42,960 nice and tidy and 790 00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:44,400 everything's okay 791 00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:46,720 well lo and behold there comes this sort 792 00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,640 of epiphany or this 793 00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:50,960 uh moment of experience within the 794 00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:53,360 tradition that we must grapple with 795 00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:56,159 and and that that small little change 796 00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,440 that little perturbation in the larger 797 00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:01,679 uh sort of structure ends up inevitably 798 00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:04,720 changing it from the inside out 799 00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:06,080 i don't know how you think about that 800 00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:08,399 but to me it's a it's pretty clear if 801 00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:10,159 you look at our religious past like 802 00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,480 that's happened over and over again 803 00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:14,159 yeah several several things come to mind 804 00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,520 with that um 805 00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:17,840 you know to first your point around the 806 00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:20,159 co-opting of previous traditions you 807 00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:21,600 know 808 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:24,000 before 809 00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:26,080 the reason that happens is because say a 810 00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:27,919 colonizing force will go into a certain 811 00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,080 area that already had certain spiritual 812 00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:32,080 practices and this may have been going 813 00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:33,679 on for generations and generations and 814 00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:35,279 you can't just can't tell them to stop 815 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,360 right they won't so instead what you do 816 00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:40,159 is you you reframe it right you say 817 00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:42,960 okay so yes demons are real 818 00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,600 but really there's only two types the 819 00:28:49,029 --> 00:28:48,000 goods and the bads and one's demon one's 820 00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:49,039 angel 821 00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,640 and this is how this makes sense within 822 00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:52,320 our religious tradition 823 00:28:55,909 --> 00:28:53,840 and so 824 00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:55,919 what people often don't remember or 825 00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:57,279 don't realize 826 00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,399 you know i remember saying this to you 827 00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:00,399 recently that i i still see people 828 00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,360 saying 829 00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:03,440 you know what will replace religion one 830 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,399 day 831 00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:06,880 and my response is religion has been 832 00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,799 replaced a thousand times already it's 833 00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:10,960 being replaced all the time by the next 834 00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,799 iteration of it right so 835 00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:14,080 um 836 00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,600 for instance even today in different 837 00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:16,880 parts of the world there's some very 838 00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:19,200 very different forms of christianity 839 00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:20,720 you know even within buddhism there's 840 00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:22,960 numerous schools um 841 00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:24,320 you know and and just like in 842 00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,320 christianity some buddhist schools 843 00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:28,799 develop more dogma and more of a 844 00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,880 uh you know 845 00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:32,480 did he really you know touch the ground 846 00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:34,000 kind of view of the buddha versus others 847 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:35,440 that seem much more as like a human 848 00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:37,760 being who is saying don't look to me ask 849 00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:41,520 these questions yourself you know so 850 00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:42,960 but what's interesting is you get this 851 00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:44,720 synchronization that happens right where 852 00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:47,679 you get this sort of amalgamation of two 853 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,840 different cultures and sometimes enough 854 00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:51,360 time goes by 855 00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:52,720 so for instance you get christians in 856 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:55,279 the modern world in america he'll say 857 00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:56,240 listen 858 00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:58,559 don't take christ out of christmas right 859 00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:00,799 i'm sick of all this commercialization 860 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:02,720 and giving my give me my darn christmas 861 00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:04,320 tree right not realizing that a 862 00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:06,159 christmas tree was originally a pagan 863 00:30:09,669 --> 00:30:07,360 symbol right 864 00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:09,679 that was co-opted by the church 865 00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:12,640 again in a way to sort of like try to 866 00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:14,480 rein in the local population when a 867 00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:16,960 colonizing christian force came in 868 00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:19,440 but but lastly i would say i think this 869 00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:21,039 even happens with 870 00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:22,880 with the ufo phenomenon because you 871 00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:24,080 talked about 872 00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:28,080 you know trying to to simplify and to um 873 00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:30,159 catalog this and categorize it in such a 874 00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:32,880 way that becomes safe you know and tame 875 00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,440 i think you know just today we both were 876 00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:38,000 reading or listening to um 877 00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:40,480 an audio uh segment that a friend of 878 00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,080 ours recorded about 879 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:43,840 all the different segments within 880 00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:45,200 ufology 881 00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:46,880 who are convinced of their own 882 00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:48,880 particular view of what's going on right 883 00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:50,960 and it's usually a very narrow view 884 00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,279 everything from you know 885 00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,960 there's no such thing as a bad alien 886 00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:56,640 right they're all good they're all like 887 00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:58,799 you know angelic basically and if you 888 00:31:02,830 --> 00:31:00,320 encountered something different then it 889 00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,840 was probably like a psyop from the 890 00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,559 government uh 891 00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,159 you know or that you brought it on 892 00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:08,399 yourself and we we've we've seen that 893 00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:09,760 again in our both of our religious 894 00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:10,799 history 895 00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:13,279 come up in even in biblical texts around 896 00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:15,200 there's times where there is just this 897 00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:16,399 assumption 898 00:31:19,269 --> 00:31:18,320 if bad things happen to you it must have 899 00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:19,279 been 900 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,799 because of the fruit of your actions 901 00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,080 right you must have brought this on 902 00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:24,320 yourself somehow we're seeing that very 903 00:31:27,510 --> 00:31:26,080 same thing happen today with the ufo 904 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:27,520 phenomenon 905 00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:30,000 where people have the gall to say 906 00:31:33,510 --> 00:31:31,600 well if you had a negative experience 907 00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:33,520 with a negative alien 908 00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,960 you're just experiencing the reflection 909 00:31:37,830 --> 00:31:36,399 of your own shadows so really if you 910 00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:37,840 just do some shadow work you it won't 911 00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:40,000 happen anymore right which is the very 912 00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,159 same thing that that job and people like 913 00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:44,559 that in in ancient biblical history ran 914 00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:47,200 into as well so it's you know humans 915 00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:49,519 don't change as much as we think we do 916 00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,320 and um 917 00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,080 i think you know 918 00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:56,480 part of my realization the more i've 919 00:32:01,750 --> 00:31:58,960 kind of channeled some some information 920 00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:01,760 about what is going on it's just how 921 00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:04,960 insanely complex it is and no simple 922 00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,840 model is is going to capture it 923 00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,760 and just like you just sort of uh 924 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,000 implied you know if you try to 925 00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,720 um force this structure over it 926 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,279 you know close that suitcase on it 927 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:18,960 the shirt's gonna lead you know out of 928 00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:20,240 the suitcase you're just not gonna be 929 00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:22,480 able to shut it down eventually that 930 00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,519 that 931 00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,519 energetic impulse will arise in some 932 00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,600 other way um that's just kind of the way 933 00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:28,559 it works 934 00:32:34,149 --> 00:32:30,880 and it's again part of our long 935 00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:34,159 trajectory of as a as a species 936 00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,840 trying to understand something and as 937 00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,440 soon as we understand it we try to lock 938 00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:40,000 it down and yet 939 00:32:43,669 --> 00:32:41,840 that impulse will always rise again and 940 00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,679 that's kind of this cycle that we've 941 00:32:48,549 --> 00:32:46,159 been going through 942 00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:48,559 i think of it as our as our relationship 943 00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:49,679 with 944 00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:55,360 is that 945 00:33:01,750 --> 00:32:58,240 continues to grow 946 00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:01,760 our models will never be quite right and 947 00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:04,080 no matter how much we want to be the 948 00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:06,559 architects of a perfect system 949 00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:08,480 and our theologians are excellent 950 00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:11,279 technicians and magicians who can you 951 00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:13,279 know kind of transmute the 952 00:33:19,630 --> 00:33:16,000 uh the content of the religion of the 953 00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:19,640 past and and move it into the present uh 954 00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:21,919 re-contextualizing those things for a 955 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,159 present worldview and present model of 956 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:26,720 understanding 957 00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,600 you can never plan for the individual 958 00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:30,960 experience 959 00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:35,840 is so to me 960 00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:39,120 uh timely given what happened today you 961 00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:41,760 know the individual experience that that 962 00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:42,799 says 963 00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:44,960 well where does this fit you know 964 00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,600 wrestle with this how do you work this 965 00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:49,679 into your neat little model 966 00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:53,120 you know and that to me is the signpost 967 00:33:57,669 --> 00:33:55,519 that tells us we have to go 968 00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:57,679 further we have to 969 00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,640 rework things and go deeper than we've 970 00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:02,159 gone before 971 00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:04,159 because it's still not quite right 972 00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:07,120 and we must 973 00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:10,800 incorporate these these experiences into 974 00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:13,040 our sort of new world view and then even 975 00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:15,040 beyond that there will be new models 976 00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:16,560 that that emerge 977 00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:18,960 once we think we've got that down pat as 978 00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:21,839 well but all of these things are 979 00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:23,839 what you would expect to see 980 00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,240 if you are relating with an intelligence 981 00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:27,599 that is not 982 00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:29,200 the sort of 983 00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,919 common intelligence of a population 984 00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,480 that that is that is present in 985 00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,159 relationship with you 986 00:34:41,589 --> 00:34:38,960 you know it's it's mere existence 987 00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:41,599 as it relates to you on some level as a 988 00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:44,000 society or as an individual 989 00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:47,599 prompts emergence of new ways of insight 990 00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:50,639 and and experience 991 00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:51,919 yeah and i would say you know even when 992 00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:54,159 you think about it from kind of a 993 00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,000 scientific perspective 994 00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:58,240 goodell's theorem tells us that you 995 00:35:01,109 --> 00:35:00,240 could never have a complete model right 996 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:01,119 so 997 00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:03,440 um that's kind of in 998 00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,280 there's a mathematical proof around that 999 00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:08,000 so it's really in some ways not you know 1000 00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:10,640 you can't deny it that um 1001 00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:12,320 the nature of reality seems to be a 1002 00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:14,320 dynamic system like that that it that it 1003 00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:17,359 it by its very nature is alive and 1004 00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:19,760 therefore not tamed not static never 1005 00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:22,240 fully knowable that 1006 00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,520 as i've 1007 00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:25,200 postulated on point of convergence 1008 00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:28,320 before our very act of trying to 1009 00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:31,280 understand reality expands it 1010 00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:33,440 right and so it's like the cat chasing 1011 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:35,040 its tail 1012 00:35:40,150 --> 00:35:38,160 but in a really dynamic uh an incredible 1013 00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:40,160 and beautiful way that we 1014 00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,160 are part of the very thing this 1015 00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,720 underlying construct of consciousness 1016 00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:47,119 that we're trying to understand and so 1017 00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,920 we are changing it by studying it and 1018 00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,599 and that you know creates this kind of 1019 00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,839 ongoing cyclical dynamic which is really 1020 00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:55,040 interesting 1021 00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:56,640 um 1022 00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:58,000 but you know and just in terms of 1023 00:36:00,870 --> 00:36:00,160 science you know i think a couple things 1024 00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:00,880 there 1025 00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:02,640 one is 1026 00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:03,520 it's 1027 00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:06,160 sad that science has become 1028 00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:07,839 as as and it's not just a pick on 1029 00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:09,040 science because the same thing happened 1030 00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,040 with christianity right and every other 1031 00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:13,200 religious tradition it's really a human 1032 00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:14,880 nature thing it's not a religious thing 1033 00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:17,440 or a scientific thing it's just this 1034 00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:19,680 desire to like lock it down and say this 1035 00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:22,079 is the system this is the model and the 1036 00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,200 model 1037 00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:25,359 basically is a map that perfectly 1038 00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:27,920 represents the territory when we know 1039 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:29,920 that the map never represents the 1040 00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:31,920 territory it's always an approximation 1041 00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:34,160 it's always going to lose things in 1042 00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,160 translation that it will never be as 1043 00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:38,400 dynamic and fully dimensional as the 1044 00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:41,440 territory itself but the other piece 1045 00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:43,280 that i think about with what we're 1046 00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:46,000 lacking in the ufo phenomenon discussion 1047 00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,960 is that 1048 00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:48,720 because there has been so little 1049 00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:54,470 people can just adopt whatever belief 1050 00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:56,079 system they prefer 1051 00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:58,400 and they're never confronted with the 1052 00:37:01,990 --> 00:37:00,240 data that doesn't fit that or that they 1053 00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:02,000 can just find ways to sort of hand wave 1054 00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:04,160 and say well you did this wrong or you 1055 00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:06,240 know this this is the outlier 1056 00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,240 you know explanation here and they don't 1057 00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,400 really grapple with the data whereas i 1058 00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:12,400 think about like donald hoffman's work 1059 00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:13,520 around 1060 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:16,320 seeing evolution as an interface rather 1061 00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,720 than base reality 1062 00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:20,880 he's basing that on mathematical 1063 00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:22,560 theorems right he's saying this is what 1064 00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:25,599 the math is telling us and he's done a 1065 00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:28,160 great job in his humble way of saying 1066 00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:28,960 that 1067 00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,079 the reason why we fallible human beings 1068 00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:34,079 need like matt the precision of a 1069 00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:36,960 mathematical model is because we so do 1070 00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:39,440 quickly move towards dogma right all of 1071 00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:40,160 us 1072 00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:42,240 and the reason why space-time for 1073 00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:43,280 instance 1074 00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:46,079 is running up against a brick wall is 1075 00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:48,880 because the math is telling us that so 1076 00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:50,720 as much as it's been this amazing 1077 00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,880 explanatory mechanism 1078 00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:54,960 that's you know given us all the wonders 1079 00:37:59,109 --> 00:37:57,200 of the modern world and taking us into 1080 00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:59,119 space and all these other things 1081 00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:01,040 giving us refrigerators and personal 1082 00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:02,400 computers 1083 00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:04,720 but um 1084 00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:05,920 you know there's there's always there's 1085 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:07,920 always another side to that so 1086 00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:09,040 um 1087 00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:10,640 this is something just to keep in mind 1088 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,510 at uh at some point 1089 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:20,630 i think 1090 00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:23,520 you know i'm thinking about how we 1091 00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:26,079 the urge to have that control you know a 1092 00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:28,880 lot of the pushback that we see on the 1093 00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:31,440 data that that is that doesn't fit is 1094 00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:33,359 this urge to 1095 00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:34,640 be comfortable 1096 00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:35,599 to 1097 00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:38,960 kind of beat back the the outliers 1098 00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,599 and fortify the walls of what i want to 1099 00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,680 be true 1100 00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,520 instead of 1101 00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,240 opening yourself up to that uh 1102 00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:50,079 information that doesn't quite fit and 1103 00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:52,480 it might change what you know it might 1104 00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,640 change how you are 1105 00:38:58,829 --> 00:38:56,640 and and so i think about that and i 1106 00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:58,839 think about our the way that we organize 1107 00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,280 ourselves uh sort of structurally as a 1108 00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:03,280 society's you know too 1109 00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:04,480 so 1110 00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:07,280 nation states do that as well right they 1111 00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:08,800 they have very clear 1112 00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,760 boundaries and structures and uh borders 1113 00:39:15,710 --> 00:39:14,800 and uh you know all meant to keep you 1114 00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:15,720 know 1115 00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:18,400 non-folks who are in that nation away 1116 00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:20,480 you know you're not a citizen of this 1117 00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,960 country you know we do things this way 1118 00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:24,560 this is what makes us comfortable it's 1119 00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:26,640 what what has worked for us 1120 00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:28,720 uh or all of everyone else we'd like you 1121 00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:30,960 just to stay outside if you do come you 1122 00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,720 have to come on our terms uh we're gonna 1123 00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:34,079 be watching you and we're gonna ask you 1124 00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,520 to politely leave at some point you know 1125 00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:37,920 so it's very organized and neat and tidy 1126 00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:40,640 uh it it's it's not doesn't surprise me 1127 00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:41,680 that those 1128 00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:42,800 structures 1129 00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,920 mirror 1130 00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:45,839 the way in which we do 1131 00:39:49,589 --> 00:39:47,839 the way which we model the world and how 1132 00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:49,599 we believe 1133 00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:54,470 the role of the net nation state and 1134 00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:57,920 kind of in how it functions both 1135 00:40:02,390 --> 00:39:59,920 in the way i just talked about but in 1136 00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:02,400 the way that it may or may not wrestle 1137 00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:03,520 with 1138 00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:05,839 a threat to its power 1139 00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:08,160 that might come from outside that is not 1140 00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:09,839 just a mere 1141 00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:12,480 sort of other nation but a threat that 1142 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:13,200 is 1143 00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:15,680 non-human you know how do how would how 1144 00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:18,240 do states and state power deal with 1145 00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:19,359 something that 1146 00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:21,280 quite frankly they may have no ability 1147 00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:23,359 to control 1148 00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,760 well i think back to uh a famous speech 1149 00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,760 that ronald reagan gave 1150 00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:29,760 where he said you know the the one thing 1151 00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:32,240 that might unite the world and 1152 00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:34,000 douse the cold war 1153 00:40:35,829 --> 00:40:34,800 uh 1154 00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:35,839 it would be 1155 00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,079 um a threat from an extraterrestrial you 1156 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:40,960 know intelligence um now interestingly i 1157 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:43,760 think there's evidence i've seen that 1158 00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:46,480 that was not just um a hypothetical that 1159 00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,400 he was actually aware of 1160 00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:49,760 um 1161 00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:51,760 an alien intelligence 1162 00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:53,359 a group that was here that were actually 1163 00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:54,800 abducting people 1164 00:40:59,670 --> 00:40:56,800 um and 1165 00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:59,680 you know the as the story goes you know 1166 00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,680 he actually had conversations with his 1167 00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:03,280 russian counterpart 1168 00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:05,680 uh to say you know if this flares up 1169 00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,640 will you join hands with us and and 1170 00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:11,200 trying to fight this off um which is 1171 00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:12,160 interesting when you think about it 1172 00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:14,000 right away because it's like it's 1173 00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:16,000 admitting it's almost like you know kids 1174 00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:17,440 on the playground saying you know if a 1175 00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:19,520 bigger bully comes along will you rather 1176 00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:21,440 than fighting me actually help fight 1177 00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:23,040 them off 1178 00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:24,880 and i think i've given you uh or maybe 1179 00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:26,079 talked about this on this on this 1180 00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:28,240 podcast i can't remember but i love this 1181 00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:29,920 example of 1182 00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:32,240 this one time this teacher was noticing 1183 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:34,319 different factions in his class right 1184 00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,200 different 1185 00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:37,200 cliques that were forming and so what he 1186 00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:40,000 did was he just started being really um 1187 00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,680 bizarre in the kind of homework he gave 1188 00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,200 and he would suddenly give a pop quiz 1189 00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:45,680 without giving any kind of warning and 1190 00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:47,680 just would actually in a very arbitrary 1191 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:49,440 ways and 1192 00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,280 what it did was it united all the kids 1193 00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,599 in the classroom around the you know the 1194 00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:56,079 unjust teacher right so they all became 1195 00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:58,720 just one group trying to rally against 1196 00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:00,319 this unjust teacher who had these 1197 00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:02,560 arbitrary rules and it was completely 1198 00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:03,839 capricious 1199 00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,680 and at the end of the the semester he 1200 00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:07,440 kind of explained what he did and why he 1201 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:08,880 did it you know i think it's a great 1202 00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,240 example of how 1203 00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:13,040 how that happens um 1204 00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:19,030 the reason why the you know disclosure 1205 00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:20,560 hasn't happened and i've talked about 1206 00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:23,760 this before many times is because 1207 00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:26,640 you know when a populist is made aware 1208 00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:28,640 that there are intelligences that are 1209 00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:31,280 more capable than us technologically and 1210 00:42:34,710 --> 00:42:33,200 seem to actually understand space-time 1211 00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:34,720 and even the way that consciousness 1212 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:37,119 works in ways that we can begin to 1213 00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:39,520 understand and comprehend and even 1214 00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:42,960 sometimes form potential models around 1215 00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:46,640 that to admit this to a populist 1216 00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:48,640 undermines the very fabric of a 1217 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:50,319 nation-state because the whole idea of 1218 00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:52,000 having borders 1219 00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:54,000 is that you can actually defend them 1220 00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:56,319 right that you can say to people you can 1221 00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:57,119 rest 1222 00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:59,839 night because 1223 00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:01,200 you know we've got 1224 00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:04,079 you know f-18s and tanks and 1225 00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:04,960 um 1226 00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:07,280 police forces and military 1227 00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,640 but 1228 00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:10,160 when none of that works when all that 1229 00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:12,160 becomes like sticks and stones versus 1230 00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:13,760 something that's like hyper-intelligent 1231 00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:16,000 and hyper-capable you know none of that 1232 00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:17,920 matters so that's been part of the issue 1233 00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:19,040 is that 1234 00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:25,270 does not care about your borders does 1235 00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:27,920 not care about you know your nationality 1236 00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:31,280 uh or your societal structure and so it 1237 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,640 it inherently uh destabilizes the notion 1238 00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:36,160 of nation states 1239 00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,480 and lastly i would just say 1240 00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:40,880 you know again 1241 00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:43,839 it's surprising to me how often we are 1242 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:46,240 so myopic you know like 1243 00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,680 there was a time in history where the 1244 00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:49,520 nation state was a 1245 00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:50,480 was a 1246 00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:52,560 progressive move it made sense to do 1247 00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,390 but 1248 00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,400 now we're in a situation where we have 1249 00:44:02,069 --> 00:44:00,720 technology and markets that are all 1250 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:02,079 around the world 1251 00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:05,200 where what one country does um you know 1252 00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:07,440 with natural resources and what it does 1253 00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,560 in terms of 1254 00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,800 how it pollutes the air you know 1255 00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:12,800 inevitably gets carried by trade winds 1256 00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:15,440 that affect other countries and 1257 00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:16,640 it gets to the point where it just 1258 00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:19,760 becomes clear that 1259 00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:22,319 the dynamics of the system have changed 1260 00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:25,839 right that that now the notion of 1261 00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,240 having these borders um 1262 00:44:32,309 --> 00:44:30,240 doesn't really make sense when there's 1263 00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:32,319 all these dynamic systems that ignore 1264 00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:34,000 those borders right and so it's kind of 1265 00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:36,480 silly to pretend that borders can change 1266 00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:39,440 that so we have to re-think 1267 00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:41,839 how we handle borders right and it makes 1268 00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,560 a lot more sense to for for numerous 1269 00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:46,800 reasons that we begin to think as a 1270 00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:49,839 global community and which of course is 1271 00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:50,960 challenging because there's all sorts of 1272 00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,440 inequalities we'd have to address first 1273 00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:55,280 um and i'll be the first to admit that 1274 00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:56,640 you can't just 1275 00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:59,680 impose a new model on a consciousness 1276 00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:01,119 that's not ready for it you know you 1277 00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,240 need to 1278 00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:04,160 uh when we went into afghanistan you 1279 00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:05,680 know and and thinking that we're 1280 00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:08,240 liberating them right but if if the 1281 00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:10,720 mindset collectively is not ready for a 1282 00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:12,960 market-based capitalist system 1283 00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:15,119 you can't just change it overnight so 1284 00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,480 i'm not saying that we can do this 1285 00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,480 overnight but i'm saying we have to work 1286 00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:20,400 towards this because the dynamics of the 1287 00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:21,520 system 1288 00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,440 suggests this is the only thing that's 1289 00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:25,119 viable in the long term 1290 00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:26,800 not to mention again to bring it back to 1291 00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,760 the the question of the ufo phenomenon 1292 00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,200 the one 1293 00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:33,680 aspect that makes us so glaringly 1294 00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,520 primitive to so many of these other 1295 00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:37,680 intelligences is that we still have 1296 00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:40,640 nation states rather than identifying as 1297 00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:42,480 a global community 1298 00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:43,760 so i think that's just something that 1299 00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:45,760 that's come through loud and clear 1300 00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:47,280 over and over again 1301 00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:53,030 right well then the house is getting 1302 00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:55,520 crowded we're really running out of room 1303 00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:56,400 and 1304 00:46:01,829 --> 00:45:58,480 i think this recognition that 1305 00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:01,839 we all are in fact roommates is um 1306 00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:03,359 something that at least seems to be 1307 00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:05,680 becoming clearer and clearer 1308 00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,920 uh there's still a great deal of denial 1309 00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,440 about that 1310 00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:11,599 but as you pointed out our systems are 1311 00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:12,800 now 1312 00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:15,280 uh incredibly intertwined 1313 00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,040 obviously we all share the same 1314 00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:19,680 thermostat as well 1315 00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:20,720 and so 1316 00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:23,119 the degree to which we want to continue 1317 00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:24,400 insisting 1318 00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,720 that we don't have to get along or we 1319 00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,079 don't have to start looking at things 1320 00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:30,880 differently in ways that it might be 1321 00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:32,560 transformative 1322 00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:33,920 and 1323 00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,520 move away from 1324 00:46:40,630 --> 00:46:37,440 how we've always done things in the past 1325 00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:42,069 a little bit romantic and and 1326 00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:51,270 find constructive ways to experiment 1327 00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:53,839 and grow the system or transform that 1328 00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:55,599 system to where it can be more 1329 00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:56,960 accommodating i know you've talked about 1330 00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,720 this quite a bit on uh point of 1331 00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,319 convergence these sort of stages of 1332 00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:02,480 consciousness development 1333 00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:04,880 and awareness and 1334 00:47:09,190 --> 00:47:06,800 you know for some that can be quite i 1335 00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:09,200 think frightening that 1336 00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:11,359 there's certainly a lot of uh in 1337 00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:13,200 american tradition there's a lot of 1338 00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:14,880 literature that really 1339 00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:16,800 demonizes this sort of 1340 00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,640 um larger 1341 00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:20,720 governmental structure where we start to 1342 00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:23,280 see these kinds of borders dissolve and 1343 00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:25,119 things become a lot more fluid 1344 00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:27,040 but i've heard you argue that really 1345 00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:29,040 that's what it would look like 1346 00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:32,079 as sort of the consciousness level uh 1347 00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:35,040 changes and grows over time and and a 1348 00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:36,800 lot of that's just the recognition of 1349 00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:38,800 what we just talked about that 1350 00:47:41,829 --> 00:47:41,119 we really aren't uh we don't the luxury 1351 00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:41,839 of 1352 00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:45,040 fences and in the same way we have in 1353 00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:47,200 the past and we we must 1354 00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:49,599 in fact change or we will 1355 00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:51,280 we will die we will fight each other to 1356 00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,079 the death um but how do you look at that 1357 00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,640 now uh in in particular i'm curious to 1358 00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,160 get your thoughts on 1359 00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:59,839 what do you see 1360 00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:01,280 in your own experience and in the 1361 00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:02,319 literature 1362 00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:05,440 of of how the these other intelligences 1363 00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:08,160 are kind of pushing us or interacting 1364 00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:09,760 with us to to 1365 00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:13,760 impact that notion of the nation state 1366 00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:14,880 well i would say 1367 00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:17,040 one thing uh i think i've brought it up 1368 00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:18,960 on this podcast before 1369 00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:20,880 if not here then on poc 1370 00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:22,960 um where 1371 00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:24,160 there there's 1372 00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:25,599 you know i think there's some some 1373 00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:27,119 surprising evidence from the 20th 1374 00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,599 century that is outside the mainstream 1375 00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:31,359 narrative the conventional narrative and 1376 00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:32,800 yet it did happen 1377 00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:35,680 and one of them being around this uh 1378 00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:37,599 alien group that actually did approach 1379 00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:40,160 an american administration 1380 00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,040 uh 1381 00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:43,200 with overtures around 1382 00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:44,960 we're willing to help you with you know 1383 00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,960 technology that could create free energy 1384 00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:48,400 and whatnot 1385 00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:50,880 solve a lot of your problems 1386 00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:53,119 but you know in exchange we would need 1387 00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:55,440 jews who disarm and 1388 00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:56,240 uh 1389 00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:58,000 inevitably begin to think more like a 1390 00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,720 global community and and 1391 00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:02,640 as the narrative goes you know this this 1392 00:49:07,990 --> 00:49:05,359 overture was declined um 1393 00:49:09,589 --> 00:49:08,000 and uh because there was you know fear 1394 00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:09,599 that well what if our 1395 00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:12,000 opponents across the pond 1396 00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:13,920 choose not to disarm then suddenly we're 1397 00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:16,079 at a great disadvantage so you kind of 1398 00:49:20,470 --> 00:49:18,160 have that 1399 00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:20,480 that locking mechanism right where you 1400 00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:22,559 have nation states is that 1401 00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:24,720 you don't have the luxury right now of 1402 00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:27,359 acting as one unit right that works in 1403 00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:29,440 the best interest because you're always 1404 00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:31,680 having to be aware of what that what 1405 00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,599 advantage that might give your 1406 00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:35,760 your opponent um and again it is it is 1407 00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:37,839 complex you can't just 1408 00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:39,839 take peace and love and say hey man 1409 00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:41,119 let's just like 1410 00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:42,240 do away with 1411 00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:43,920 all of these things overnight it just 1412 00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:46,079 doesn't work that way there are some 1413 00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:48,240 warlords in certain parts of the world 1414 00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:50,640 that would just dominate people and 1415 00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:52,960 terrorize people when that happened when 1416 00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,880 when the soviet union fell 1417 00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:56,880 that just gave a lot of criminal 1418 00:50:00,390 --> 00:49:58,800 enterprises an opportunity to step in 1419 00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:00,400 where the state used to dominate and now 1420 00:50:05,349 --> 00:50:03,119 these these criminal enterprises did 1421 00:50:08,549 --> 00:50:05,359 uh different mafias and whatnot 1422 00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,559 so you can't just impose a system 1423 00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:10,880 but like you said we need to 1424 00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:13,040 find ways to think more creatively 1425 00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,440 we need to find ways i think to 1426 00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:17,520 actually 1427 00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:20,000 mobilize new models right because it's 1428 00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:21,520 one thing to talk about these things but 1429 00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:23,280 people become so 1430 00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:25,040 rigid in their thinking especially when 1431 00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,559 it's never been done they assume it 1432 00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:27,839 can't be done 1433 00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:29,200 and you know you look at someone like an 1434 00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:32,000 elon musk again i understand people some 1435 00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:33,599 people are forum some people are against 1436 00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:35,520 it's a mixed bag i'd say 1437 00:50:39,589 --> 00:50:37,119 but what someone like he 1438 00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:39,599 or steve jobs those kind of people do is 1439 00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:41,680 that they just say 1440 00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:43,440 damn it i think i can do it differently 1441 00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:45,839 and i'm gonna do it you know 1442 00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:48,480 and we need models like that for how we 1443 00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:53,510 because 1444 00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,160 my concern is that 1445 00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,319 the situation is more dire than people 1446 00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,079 realize and 1447 00:51:03,670 --> 00:51:01,839 we are again pretty myopic and 1448 00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,680 near-sighted in our view and so as long 1449 00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:05,680 as you know 1450 00:51:09,190 --> 00:51:07,599 the price of gas doesn't get too high 1451 00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:09,200 and you know we can still pay our bills 1452 00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:11,440 and buy groceries and and again i'm not 1453 00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:12,720 i'm not trying to 1454 00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,079 belittle those things those things 1455 00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:16,319 matter right like it's it's it's hard to 1456 00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:19,200 live in this world in some ways um 1457 00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,000 but 1458 00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:22,480 if we think only at that level 1459 00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:24,000 while 1460 00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,520 this growing 1461 00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,680 collapse forms around us because the 1462 00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:30,000 system is just not sustainable 1463 00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:31,599 eventually that all comes crashing down 1464 00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:33,760 in one go and 1465 00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:35,280 if you don't see the writing on the wall 1466 00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:37,200 it's just going to surprise you one day 1467 00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,839 whether it's us or our grandchildren 1468 00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:41,359 it doesn't really matter it's still you 1469 00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:43,520 know going to implode at some point and 1470 00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:44,880 so i think 1471 00:51:48,549 --> 00:51:46,720 that's one 1472 00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:48,559 overarching aspect of this ufo 1473 00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:50,480 phenomenon narrative in terms of 1474 00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:52,480 experiencer accounts 1475 00:51:55,910 --> 00:51:54,240 how many times there's been this kind of 1476 00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:55,920 apocalyptic 1477 00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,640 uh vision of what's going to happen 1478 00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:00,400 whether you take that literally like you 1479 00:52:02,829 --> 00:52:02,160 know when people see the earth on fire 1480 00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:02,839 or 1481 00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:05,440 whatever matters less than the sense 1482 00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,599 that there is some sort of emergency uh 1483 00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:09,440 situation that they're trying to draw 1484 00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:10,720 our attention to 1485 00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:12,319 some of them i think are 1486 00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:14,400 beings that are partly here uh like 1487 00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:17,920 ultra-terrestrials who are impacted by 1488 00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,680 directly by things we do when we 1489 00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:21,599 detonate atomic bombs 1490 00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,200 over the atlantic and there are actually 1491 00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:27,839 alien groups living in bases you know in 1492 00:52:31,750 --> 00:52:30,319 the oceans that directly impacts them 1493 00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:31,760 but even how there's these 1494 00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:34,240 interpenetrating realities which again 1495 00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:36,240 from that consciousness model 1496 00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:37,839 um you know 1497 00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:40,240 shamans can get in touch with in the 1498 00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:44,079 same way atomic energy can perhaps 1499 00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:45,599 according to the narratives anyway 1500 00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:47,359 impact these intersecting realities in 1501 00:52:50,549 --> 00:52:49,280 ways we don't understand yet and of 1502 00:52:52,150 --> 00:52:50,559 course we wouldn't understand it because 1503 00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:52,160 we won't even acknowledge they exist 1504 00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:53,920 right we assume they're there's this 1505 00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:56,559 one-dimensional flatland reality and yet 1506 00:53:01,430 --> 00:52:59,040 we're unleashing these immense powers 1507 00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:01,440 into the into the cosmos 1508 00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:02,400 without 1509 00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:03,839 really having a 1510 00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:05,119 clear understanding that we know what 1511 00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:06,720 reality even is 1512 00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:09,119 and so this is uh i think 1513 00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:10,720 in the midst of the great mystery we're 1514 00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:12,240 all wrapped up in trying to understand 1515 00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:13,599 this 1516 00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:16,319 i think we need to to remember how 1517 00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,240 common that 1518 00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:20,559 concern is raised by these others across 1519 00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:23,440 the board um and i think 1520 00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:25,119 when you look at the situation around us 1521 00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:26,400 it certainly seems to be based on 1522 00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:34,150 i get the says that people feel this you 1523 00:53:37,990 --> 00:53:36,160 know very deeply that at least the 1524 00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,000 people that i talk to i mean we all i 1525 00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:43,510 recognition that it's not working and 1526 00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:45,839 then something has to change and 1527 00:53:49,589 --> 00:53:47,440 you know i think about that but i also 1528 00:53:52,309 --> 00:53:49,599 am aware that we we have a hyper 1529 00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,319 fixation on on bad news 1530 00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:53,920 um 1531 00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:56,400 it's being fed to us really every day 1532 00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:58,640 kind of part of the fabric of the air we 1533 00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,680 breathe 1534 00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:01,200 and so i 1535 00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:07,030 to what degree are these other 1536 00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:09,359 intelligences are they taking an active 1537 00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:12,480 role to help us and help us transform 1538 00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,359 uh our ways of being and and enter into 1539 00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,760 new ways of being 1540 00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:19,599 what are the energies that play there 1541 00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:22,079 and and we've talked about uh in fact we 1542 00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:23,599 talked about earlier tonight before we 1543 00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:25,119 came on the air 1544 00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:27,760 you know kind of the the greater story 1545 00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:29,280 at play the 1546 00:54:36,150 --> 00:54:34,079 the greater kind of tapestry of of life 1547 00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:36,160 and all of the energetic movements 1548 00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:37,280 therein 1549 00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:40,400 and we can be pretty myopically focused 1550 00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:43,599 on this experience right here and now 1551 00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,079 but there are 1552 00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:48,240 just layer upon layer 1553 00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:50,640 of interactions that are happening 1554 00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:51,440 that 1555 00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:53,599 we barely can perceive or maybe not 1556 00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:55,920 perceive at all and so you know how do 1557 00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:57,839 we best i think where i'm going here is 1558 00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,079 how do we best contextualize 1559 00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:03,520 uh all of that uh other 1560 00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:04,720 activity 1561 00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,520 uh in light of our lived experience kind 1562 00:55:12,069 --> 00:55:10,079 of in in this moment where we are on 1563 00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:12,079 earth and with one another how do we 1564 00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:14,319 make sense of all of that 1565 00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:16,319 no small question there 1566 00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:19,119 yeah good luck with that one 1567 00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:21,680 yeah i mean i i think um 1568 00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:22,880 one of the things i was saying to you 1569 00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:24,960 before we went on the air was uh 1570 00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:26,800 me kind of having a vision of the 1571 00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:29,119 complexity of how many 1572 00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:31,200 uh different elements there are to what 1573 00:55:35,109 --> 00:55:33,280 we call the phenomenon 1574 00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:35,119 and how 1575 00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:36,640 there are so many interpenetrating 1576 00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,440 realities that i i was 1577 00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:41,839 envisioning and seeing and experiencing 1578 00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:44,079 when i had this this download 1579 00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:45,520 that 1580 00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:48,799 you know almost everything we do um 1581 00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:50,960 and that we're motivated by that uh you 1582 00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:53,359 know modern science might reduce to 1583 00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:55,280 well that's because you know 1584 00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:57,599 you get a serotonin release or dopamine 1585 00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:59,119 and that's why that's happening or this 1586 00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:00,720 and that i would say those are 1587 00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,400 correlates in the physic in a 1588 00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:03,920 physicalist model right those are the 1589 00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:05,680 correlates that show up on the physical 1590 00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:08,000 level but just like you know donald 1591 00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:09,760 hoffman would say and i love when he 1592 00:56:13,510 --> 00:56:11,680 says this because it sounds so startling 1593 00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,520 to people you know your brain doesn't 1594 00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:15,119 really exist you know 1595 00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:17,040 and what he means is 1596 00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:19,040 when you look at a brain that's just the 1597 00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:21,280 correlate a one-dimensional correlate of 1598 00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:22,799 something that's happening in 1599 00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:24,079 consciousness 1600 00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:25,920 and so it's a it's a second-person 1601 00:56:31,030 --> 00:56:28,880 perspective of your of you know your 1602 00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:31,040 conscious experience and i know that's 1603 00:56:35,270 --> 00:56:32,960 difficult for people to understand 1604 00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:35,280 because it sounds 1605 00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:37,920 outlandish but the more you begin to see 1606 00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,440 that everything 1607 00:56:43,109 --> 00:56:41,440 is consciousness including space time 1608 00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:43,119 and everything in it being actually just 1609 00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:49,030 anyway getting back to the picture of 1610 00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:50,480 like all these interpenetrating 1611 00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:56,309 even when we experience fear or we 1612 00:57:00,309 --> 00:56:59,200 experience love or we experience 1613 00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:00,319 union 1614 00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:01,760 these are 1615 00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:04,400 energies that are coming from beyond us 1616 00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:05,440 as well 1617 00:57:09,190 --> 00:57:06,960 and 1618 00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:09,200 we have to find ways to 1619 00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:11,760 respond to those energetic impulses in 1620 00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,000 better ways and i totally agree with you 1621 00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:16,480 the part of the problem is that 1622 00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,960 our media 1623 00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:21,040 just bombards us constantly right like 1624 00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:22,480 you know there's that famous expression 1625 00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:24,079 if it bleeds it leads right for 1626 00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:26,720 newspapers it's that to the nth degree 1627 00:57:31,510 --> 00:57:29,200 now because there's not even like a few 1628 00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:31,520 main newspapers and a few main tv 1629 00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:32,480 channels 1630 00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:34,960 that can have the luxury of saying you 1631 00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:36,640 know let's actually put quality first 1632 00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:38,160 they they can't 1633 00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:40,400 because it's a market system so you know 1634 00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:42,160 whatever is the most shocking that's 1635 00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:43,359 gonna 1636 00:57:47,910 --> 00:57:45,760 produce the most post-traumatic stress 1637 00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:47,920 syndrome in people the better 1638 00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:51,280 ironically right uh when 9 11 happened i 1639 00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:53,359 remember myself you know you just you 1640 00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:56,319 watch image after image after image over 1641 00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:57,920 and over again of these jets smashing 1642 00:58:01,270 --> 00:57:59,760 into these buildings knowing that people 1643 00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,280 are dying in the process right and yet 1644 00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:03,359 we can't look away right it's a it's a 1645 00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:05,920 it's a bizarre energetic thing that we 1646 00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,760 go through 1647 00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:09,839 so i think we're kind of like the frog 1648 00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:11,760 that you know you put them in the pot 1649 00:58:15,349 --> 00:58:13,599 and you turn up the water temperature 1650 00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:15,359 slowly and it never jumps out right 1651 00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:17,359 because it loses its ability 1652 00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:18,160 to 1653 00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:20,400 it becomes desensitized in a way right 1654 00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:22,480 and that's what it's been like with us 1655 00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:24,640 that on the one hand we're told that 1656 00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,079 there's some real emergencies in the 1657 00:58:30,390 --> 00:58:28,160 world yet at the same time the news 1658 00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:30,400 tells us that the most 1659 00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:32,079 insane emergencies are happening every 1660 00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:33,440 day and yet we wake up the next day and 1661 00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,760 we're still here so that begins to fool 1662 00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:37,440 us into thinking maybe there actually 1663 00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:39,440 are no real emergencies it's all just 1664 00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:41,680 entertainment and shock value 1665 00:58:45,670 --> 00:58:44,079 while actually these stresses build up 1666 00:58:48,390 --> 00:58:45,680 in the system and eventually the system 1667 00:58:49,829 --> 00:58:48,400 just collapses i think that's that's the 1668 00:58:53,349 --> 00:58:49,839 challenge the challenge that we're 1669 00:58:53,359 --> 00:58:56,150 yeah and you've 1670 00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,630 we've talked about i think our uh 1671 00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:01,349 our 1672 00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:06,799 uh 1673 00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:09,440 in many ways rightly focused on you know 1674 00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,520 here now where we are and and our 1675 00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:13,920 immediate concerns but 1676 00:59:18,549 --> 00:59:17,040 if you do take this more macro view 1677 00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:18,559 that 1678 00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:21,920 we are but a small part of a very large 1679 00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:24,640 uh expression that is reality 1680 00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,069 that 1681 00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:32,160 it it changes the way in which we see 1682 00:59:36,309 --> 00:59:34,400 ourselves and the importance of our 1683 00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:36,319 experience so i guess i want to play 1684 00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:38,559 with this a little bit because 1685 00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:40,079 you know i think that it's important 1686 00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:41,440 that we 1687 00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,680 we we treat this concept very seriously 1688 00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:45,200 and we could be pretty flippant about it 1689 00:59:48,789 --> 00:59:46,799 and we could say well what happens to 1690 00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:48,799 you and i is uh 1691 00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:49,680 no 1692 00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:52,000 more important than what happens to a 1693 00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:53,760 cell that just happens to be 1694 00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,520 you know dying in your body and you 1695 01:00:00,309 --> 00:59:57,359 don't even realize that it was there to 1696 01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:00,319 begin with um we could take that pretty 1697 01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:02,160 uh callous view 1698 01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,480 of the cell 1699 01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:06,000 but if we were to take a more integral 1700 01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:08,079 view of the entire system 1701 01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:10,240 we value all the cells that we have you 1702 01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:12,960 know here you know they all comprise the 1703 01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:16,720 organism and the organism is is who we 1704 01:00:20,470 --> 01:00:19,280 are you know so we have this ability 1705 01:00:22,470 --> 01:00:20,480 in our 1706 01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:22,480 own experience of life 1707 01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:23,520 to 1708 01:00:33,270 --> 01:00:31,200 micro awareness of those things which 1709 01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:33,280 which constitute ourselves 1710 01:00:39,109 --> 01:00:36,400 and in that very same way 1711 01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:39,119 reality is that as well so 1712 01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:42,559 reality has this ability uh to have a 1713 01:00:47,109 --> 01:00:45,359 macro awareness of self that cosmic self 1714 01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:47,119 capital s 1715 01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:51,200 and and also can perceive down 1716 01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:53,599 all the way down to the very lowest 1717 01:00:58,549 --> 01:00:56,079 levels and and realize the importance of 1718 01:01:00,390 --> 01:00:58,559 those lowest levels as well is that how 1719 01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:00,400 you think of this i mean for me that's 1720 01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:02,640 how i look at it because it feels very 1721 01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:05,520 holistic it feels very redemptive where 1722 01:01:10,390 --> 01:01:08,000 nothing is really discarded or 1723 01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:10,400 uh or denigrated in any way it doesn't 1724 01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:12,079 mean everything's harmonious obviously 1725 01:01:15,430 --> 01:01:13,920 there's a lot of activity happening in a 1726 01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:15,440 body at any given moment things are 1727 01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:18,000 being metabolized and you know energies 1728 01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:20,480 are transmuted from one form to another 1729 01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:22,400 uh so it's not like it's all just 1730 01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:24,640 everybody holding hands and it's perfect 1731 01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:26,000 but it 1732 01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:28,079 it makes sense to me that that if if 1733 01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:31,200 reality isn't it can be compared to that 1734 01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:32,640 that that's uh 1735 01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:35,040 one one positive way of looking at how 1736 01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:36,720 all of these interactions may be taking 1737 01:01:39,349 --> 01:01:37,839 place 1738 01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:39,359 yeah i think that is the way i think 1739 01:01:43,030 --> 01:01:40,799 about it um 1740 01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:43,040 you know there's this expression a term 1741 01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:44,240 hold on 1742 01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:47,760 which uh basically describes how every 1743 01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:50,240 discrete part of reality is both 1744 01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:52,480 an individual and part of a larger a 1745 01:01:57,670 --> 01:01:54,640 larger whole right so 1746 01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:57,680 um like you said cells are 1747 01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:59,680 discrete individual things but they also 1748 01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:00,960 are part of 1749 01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:04,000 makeup organs which make up a body right 1750 01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:05,200 um 1751 01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:06,960 it's really interesting when you look at 1752 01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:08,720 in the macro view 1753 01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:11,119 when you look at a the neuronal network 1754 01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:12,400 of a brain 1755 01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:13,839 and you look at the macro view of the 1756 01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:16,160 universe they look very very similar 1757 01:02:20,309 --> 01:02:18,079 it's almost like you could say that the 1758 01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:20,319 universe in its totality looks like the 1759 01:02:25,270 --> 01:02:23,040 the neuronal network of god right of the 1760 01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,280 central cosmic intelligence 1761 01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:27,200 um and i think that makes a lot of sense 1762 01:02:31,510 --> 01:02:29,680 from a consciousness first kind of model 1763 01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:31,520 um 1764 01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:33,760 and it's interesting i had someone bring 1765 01:02:37,829 --> 01:02:36,000 this up and it's a great point that 1766 01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:37,839 you know we now have evidence that you 1767 01:02:40,710 --> 01:02:38,720 know 1768 01:02:42,789 --> 01:02:40,720 our gut is kind of like another kind of 1769 01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:42,799 brain another kind of decision center 1770 01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:43,599 right 1771 01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:45,599 and what that basically is saying is 1772 01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:47,599 that there's some 1773 01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:50,640 you know single-celled organisms perhaps 1774 01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:54,000 or you know microbial life 1775 01:02:57,510 --> 01:02:56,720 bacteria and whatnot living in your gut 1776 01:02:59,589 --> 01:02:57,520 that 1777 01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:59,599 is actually 1778 01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:01,520 making you make decisions one over 1779 01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:03,680 another and you're not conscious of it 1780 01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,599 because you you kind of harmonize it 1781 01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:07,680 within this larger structure 1782 01:03:10,309 --> 01:03:08,640 and 1783 01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:10,319 furthermore there's there's lots of 1784 01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:12,559 evidence now 1785 01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:14,400 that you know the two hemispheres of the 1786 01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:16,319 brain are very very different you know 1787 01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:17,599 you 1788 01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:21,920 the functioning of one to see highlight 1789 01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:23,839 what they both do and it's not just 1790 01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:26,880 about different functions they carry but 1791 01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:28,240 they basically can have completely 1792 01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:29,599 different personalities you know you 1793 01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:31,920 literally can have one brain one half of 1794 01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:33,200 the brain i say one brain because 1795 01:03:37,430 --> 01:03:35,200 they're almost basically like two two 1796 01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:37,440 brains that harmonize 1797 01:03:39,829 --> 01:03:38,640 um 1798 01:03:41,750 --> 01:03:39,839 into a 1799 01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:41,760 coherent sense of self 1800 01:03:44,950 --> 01:03:43,119 but you know you can actually have 1801 01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:44,960 situations where when they're able to 1802 01:03:48,710 --> 01:03:46,400 shut down the functioning of one part of 1803 01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:48,720 the brain and talk to the other 1804 01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:50,400 one will be atheistic the other one will 1805 01:03:54,069 --> 01:03:51,839 be a committed you know religious 1806 01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:54,079 believer literally in the same within 1807 01:04:00,150 --> 01:03:56,880 the same skull of a human being um 1808 01:04:02,470 --> 01:04:00,160 so we already see so much evidence of 1809 01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:02,480 this right over and over again and in 1810 01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:05,200 reality this whole on kind of structure 1811 01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:06,160 where 1812 01:04:10,710 --> 01:04:08,880 everything is both a discrete 1813 01:04:12,150 --> 01:04:10,720 organism and part of a larger and i 1814 01:04:14,150 --> 01:04:12,160 think that scales all the way up and all 1815 01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:14,160 the way down and like you pointed out 1816 01:04:16,950 --> 01:04:16,160 they both have value looking in it that 1817 01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:16,960 way 1818 01:04:22,789 --> 01:04:20,400 i think that when we go awry is when we 1819 01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:22,799 we focus too much on 1820 01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:24,640 on either side of that right we don't we 1821 01:04:28,710 --> 01:04:27,440 don't see the the interconnected nature 1822 01:04:30,870 --> 01:04:28,720 of everything 1823 01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:30,880 which ultimately scales up like donald 1824 01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,960 hoffman would say you take all these 1825 01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:34,960 discrete conscious agents but they 1826 01:04:40,069 --> 01:04:37,440 ultimately even in the math 1827 01:04:42,230 --> 01:04:40,079 can also be described as one cosmic 1828 01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,240 agent ultimately like basically the mind 1829 01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:44,880 of god right or bernardo castro would 1830 01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:45,760 say 1831 01:04:50,549 --> 01:04:48,559 we are all disassociated selves 1832 01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:50,559 within the capital s self that you 1833 01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:51,760 referred to 1834 01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,520 and this is partly how the capital l 1835 01:05:00,309 --> 01:04:54,799 self 1836 01:05:02,069 --> 01:05:00,319 splitting off and basically letting 1837 01:05:03,829 --> 01:05:02,079 novel experience come in and then feed 1838 01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:03,839 that back into the entire dynamic 1839 01:05:07,109 --> 01:05:06,000 process which makes consciousness move 1840 01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:07,119 forward 1841 01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:09,280 so 1842 01:05:12,789 --> 01:05:11,520 it's difficult because we get fooled by 1843 01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:12,799 the illusion and the same way we can 1844 01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:14,880 look at an optical illusion and be 1845 01:05:17,589 --> 01:05:16,240 fooled by it 1846 01:05:20,309 --> 01:05:17,599 we can look at a 1847 01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,319 you know a piece of flat piece of paper 1848 01:05:24,549 --> 01:05:22,400 and see just by the way that lines are 1849 01:05:26,549 --> 01:05:24,559 drawn that we our brain perceives a cube 1850 01:05:27,349 --> 01:05:26,559 right a three-dimensional object when we 1851 01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:27,359 know 1852 01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:30,480 and yet you can't stop your brain from 1853 01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:32,240 seeing it that way 1854 01:05:36,549 --> 01:05:34,480 that's happening over and over again and 1855 01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:36,559 whether it's you know gut bacteria 1856 01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:38,400 making us choose 1857 01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:42,559 you know one food over another uh 1858 01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:44,640 or whatever i think that or we look at 1859 01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:46,799 like i mentioned on poc when you have a 1860 01:05:50,230 --> 01:05:48,880 cancer cell that goes wrong it goes 1861 01:05:52,309 --> 01:05:50,240 rogue and actually can destroy the 1862 01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:52,319 organism that it's a part of and destroy 1863 01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:54,319 itself in the process 1864 01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:58,230 getting back to sort of pulling this 1865 01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:00,160 around to our nation-state argument same 1866 01:06:05,190 --> 01:06:02,559 thing there right that if you if you 1867 01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:05,200 focus too much on just the needs of your 1868 01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:07,280 nation state forgetting that it's part 1869 01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:09,280 of some larger organism and that's 1870 01:06:13,430 --> 01:06:11,440 really what it is it's not a 1871 01:06:15,430 --> 01:06:13,440 flat one-dimensional structure it's an 1872 01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:15,440 organism right and again that's part of 1873 01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:17,039 the problem we have with the earth is we 1874 01:06:21,270 --> 01:06:18,880 tend to look at it like this 1875 01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:21,280 frontier to be dominated rather than 1876 01:06:25,109 --> 01:06:23,760 this living organism of which we are a 1877 01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:25,119 part again 1878 01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:27,760 that whole on network we are individual 1879 01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:29,920 cells within the the 1880 01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:32,400 the earth and uh 1881 01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:34,079 we sometimes don't don't realize that 1882 01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:36,240 we're becoming like cancer cells and how 1883 01:06:41,510 --> 01:06:38,960 we're you know interacting with the very 1884 01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:41,520 you know mother of of all of us the the 1885 01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:43,599 one home that we have so 1886 01:06:49,750 --> 01:06:47,280 i think this ability to toggle between 1887 01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:49,760 or be simultaneously aware of both those 1888 01:06:53,829 --> 01:06:51,599 modalities all the way up and all the 1889 01:06:55,349 --> 01:06:53,839 way down is is the one of the biggest 1890 01:06:57,430 --> 01:06:55,359 challenges we have to overcome in order 1891 01:06:59,829 --> 01:06:57,440 to think more holistically 1892 01:07:04,950 --> 01:06:59,839 and and live in more harmony all the way 1893 01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:07,430 what about ufos i mean 1894 01:07:11,990 --> 01:07:09,440 so we've we spent a lot of time not 1895 01:07:14,309 --> 01:07:12,000 talking about them on this episode 1896 01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:14,319 but you and i both know that even though 1897 01:07:19,029 --> 01:07:16,319 we haven't talked about them explicitly 1898 01:07:20,549 --> 01:07:19,039 we are in fact talking about them 1899 01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:20,559 implicitly 1900 01:07:23,430 --> 01:07:21,839 and uh 1901 01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:23,440 maybe we spend a little bit of time as 1902 01:07:28,309 --> 01:07:24,400 we kind of 1903 01:07:30,230 --> 01:07:28,319 veer toward the end of this show 1904 01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:30,240 trying to 1905 01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:31,920 paint that that broader picture to 1906 01:07:38,549 --> 01:07:34,559 integrate these uh subjects 1907 01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:38,559 uh into a cohesive you know narrative 1908 01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:41,119 because they are very much intertwined 1909 01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:44,079 um you know we we we're talking about it 1910 01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:46,000 subtly but if we were to be more 1911 01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:47,760 explicit the 1912 01:07:52,789 --> 01:07:49,680 emergence of 1913 01:07:55,109 --> 01:07:52,799 the ufo phenomena of 1914 01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:55,119 abduction experience 1915 01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:56,880 of 1916 01:08:02,069 --> 01:07:59,200 non-human entities 1917 01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:02,079 uh near-death experience you know the 1918 01:08:05,270 --> 01:08:04,400 gamut of things that we 1919 01:08:06,789 --> 01:08:05,280 are 1920 01:08:09,349 --> 01:08:06,799 quite interested in and spend a lot of 1921 01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:09,359 time talking about on various shows 1922 01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:12,160 you know how does that 1923 01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:14,160 wide variety 1924 01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:17,520 of phenomena integrate with 1925 01:08:21,669 --> 01:08:20,480 this notion this uh this consciousness 1926 01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,679 notion and 1927 01:08:25,590 --> 01:08:23,520 you know what's the best way to look at 1928 01:08:26,870 --> 01:08:25,600 that you know i feel like everything 1929 01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:26,880 that i'm reading 1930 01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:29,359 in social media is is just always 1931 01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:31,600 focused 1932 01:08:37,030 --> 01:08:34,960 to the nth degree on the smallest detail 1933 01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:37,040 the smallest component 1934 01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:40,159 of of this story 1935 01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:41,440 there are very few folks who are 1936 01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:42,560 thinking 1937 01:08:46,309 --> 01:08:45,440 you know about it in a holistic way 1938 01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:46,319 so 1939 01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:48,159 what if we were to take kind of things 1940 01:08:52,789 --> 01:08:50,159 that we've talked about on this episode 1941 01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:52,799 you know things like uh the growth of 1942 01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:56,960 human civilization and and uh mediating 1943 01:09:02,229 --> 01:09:00,480 non-human intelligent uh experience into 1944 01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:02,239 human experience 1945 01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:04,640 uh the emergence of nation states and 1946 01:09:08,789 --> 01:09:06,719 kind of the roles that they serve and 1947 01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:08,799 where they may be going you know what is 1948 01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:10,960 it that this this ufo thing and all that 1949 01:09:16,630 --> 01:09:13,040 it entails like what what does it mean 1950 01:09:20,229 --> 01:09:16,640 to you in that context 1951 01:09:22,950 --> 01:09:20,239 well i think partly what we have is 1952 01:09:26,149 --> 01:09:22,960 you know a tapestry of many many 1953 01:09:27,749 --> 01:09:26,159 different agents um 1954 01:09:35,510 --> 01:09:27,759 i 1955 01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:35,520 often people have the tendency to want 1956 01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:36,239 to 1957 01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:38,000 reduce complexity 1958 01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:41,279 and how we are biased by 1959 01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:42,880 a fairly limited experience you know 1960 01:09:46,070 --> 01:09:44,319 before we went on the air tonight i was 1961 01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:46,080 talking to you about how 1962 01:09:50,070 --> 01:09:48,400 even the the modern 1963 01:09:53,110 --> 01:09:50,080 scientific way we look at the world is a 1964 01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:53,120 fairly recent uh you know 1965 01:09:58,149 --> 01:09:55,360 twinkling of the eye in comparison to 1966 01:10:00,630 --> 01:09:58,159 the the age of our species and yet we 1967 01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:00,640 take it so seriously and so literally 1968 01:10:10,390 --> 01:10:08,550 and so i think what happens is when we 1969 01:10:12,470 --> 01:10:10,400 become wedded to the idea that that 1970 01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:12,480 pretty well describes reality 1971 01:10:16,790 --> 01:10:15,040 when we experience anomalous phenomena 1972 01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:16,800 we tend to go oh 1973 01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:19,040 we've got an outlier how we're going to 1974 01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:20,800 fit this into the model 1975 01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:23,040 because we know the model is scott is 1976 01:10:27,189 --> 01:10:25,040 pretty rock solid i mean we've lived 1977 01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:27,199 like this for like 300 years 1978 01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:28,400 i mean come on 1979 01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:30,800 it's rock solid right and and we've you 1980 01:10:35,669 --> 01:10:33,040 know we've transformed our surroundings 1981 01:10:38,229 --> 01:10:35,679 because we've known how to 1982 01:10:40,870 --> 01:10:38,239 um we know how nature behaves right so 1983 01:10:42,470 --> 01:10:40,880 i've mentioned this before too that 1984 01:10:45,270 --> 01:10:42,480 science doesn't tell us ultimately what 1985 01:10:48,070 --> 01:10:45,280 nature is or what reality is it just 1986 01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:48,080 tells us how it behaves so 1987 01:10:52,870 --> 01:10:50,800 we can you know through scientific 1988 01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:52,880 investigation 1989 01:10:57,510 --> 01:10:55,760 and developing hypotheses we can predict 1990 01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:57,520 how nature is going to behave and that's 1991 01:11:01,590 --> 01:10:59,280 all we really need to know in order to 1992 01:11:02,630 --> 01:11:01,600 create refrigerators and spacecraft 1993 01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:02,640 right 1994 01:11:05,750 --> 01:11:04,000 we don't need to know what it ultimately 1995 01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:05,760 is 1996 01:11:09,910 --> 01:11:08,400 but i think that 1997 01:11:12,070 --> 01:11:09,920 while that 1998 01:11:13,990 --> 01:11:12,080 bias to believing that because we've 1999 01:11:16,709 --> 01:11:14,000 been so successful technologically at 2000 01:11:18,709 --> 01:11:16,719 transforming our civilization our model 2001 01:11:21,030 --> 01:11:18,719 must be mostly complete 2002 01:11:23,510 --> 01:11:21,040 when we have outlier data like the ufo 2003 01:11:25,590 --> 01:11:23,520 phenomenon and paranormality and 2004 01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:25,600 deceased individuals 2005 01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:28,400 showing up uh you know or ghosts or 2006 01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:30,560 poltergeist activity 2007 01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:32,640 um we we tend to think 2008 01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:35,360 well maybe it's just all 2009 01:11:38,470 --> 01:11:37,120 different manifestations of the same one 2010 01:11:40,390 --> 01:11:38,480 thing we're missing we're just missing 2011 01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:40,400 that one thing and again i think that 2012 01:11:44,149 --> 01:11:42,239 largely comes from that bias towards 2013 01:11:46,790 --> 01:11:44,159 thinking our model is pretty 2014 01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:46,800 comprehensive 2015 01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,440 my sense to be totally honest with with 2016 01:11:53,189 --> 01:11:51,440 the sort of realizations i've had the 2017 01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,199 things that i've glimpsed 2018 01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:55,120 the communication i've had 2019 01:11:59,350 --> 01:11:57,120 with other intelligences is that it's 2020 01:12:00,790 --> 01:11:59,360 more like our model maybe captures 10 2021 01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:00,800 percent and there's 90 percent we're 2022 01:12:05,350 --> 01:12:02,960 missing like it's 2023 01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:05,360 it's kind of like you know when we 2024 01:12:09,270 --> 01:12:06,960 so flippantly say 2025 01:12:10,870 --> 01:12:09,280 yeah we understand space time even we 2026 01:12:12,229 --> 01:12:10,880 understand the universe 2027 01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:12,239 that said you know there's this stuff we 2028 01:12:16,790 --> 01:12:14,000 call dark energy and dark matter that is 2029 01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:16,800 the vast majority of all that is and we 2030 01:12:20,229 --> 01:12:18,400 don't really know what that is we just 2031 01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:20,239 slip it into the equation so we can end 2032 01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:22,320 up with you know 2033 01:12:26,470 --> 01:12:24,560 an equal sum at the end 2034 01:12:28,229 --> 01:12:26,480 and and and kind of fool ourselves into 2035 01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:28,239 thinking we have more certainty there 2036 01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:30,320 than we actually do when we're basically 2037 01:12:34,070 --> 01:12:32,080 admitting when we look at the model 2038 01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:34,080 we've generated they were just slipping 2039 01:12:37,669 --> 01:12:35,360 in some 2040 01:12:40,310 --> 01:12:37,679 uh some factors into the equation to 2041 01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:40,320 make it round properly but we don't know 2042 01:12:44,229 --> 01:12:42,080 what those things actually represent 2043 01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:44,239 right um and yet we fool ourselves the 2044 01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:46,320 same way that we we mock you know 2045 01:12:49,830 --> 01:12:48,000 primitive cultures and say ah they think 2046 01:12:52,149 --> 01:12:49,840 that the gods you know caused that 2047 01:12:53,669 --> 01:12:52,159 hurricane silly people well we just do 2048 01:12:55,910 --> 01:12:53,679 that we call it dark energy and dark 2049 01:12:59,110 --> 01:12:55,920 matter right um 2050 01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:01,030 a humble and i think a much more 2051 01:13:04,550 --> 01:13:02,880 accurate way to look at this phenomenon 2052 01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:04,560 is it saying that 2053 01:13:08,790 --> 01:13:06,239 there's something 2054 01:13:11,270 --> 01:13:08,800 seriously amiss about our model that the 2055 01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:11,280 fact that it it just cannot be inserted 2056 01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:13,600 into our model and be made sense of is 2057 01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,480 telling us that our model is incomplete 2058 01:13:21,750 --> 01:13:18,640 not just incomplete but i would say 2059 01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:21,760 a fair bit off track you know it's again 2060 01:13:24,870 --> 01:13:22,719 just like 2061 01:13:26,870 --> 01:13:24,880 um you know you had um 2062 01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:26,880 newtonian physics that works within a 2063 01:13:31,990 --> 01:13:30,000 certain parameter range right um and now 2064 01:13:34,229 --> 01:13:32,000 we have quantum theory but even that you 2065 01:13:35,830 --> 01:13:34,239 know suggestions are again that 2066 01:13:37,830 --> 01:13:35,840 that space time and quantum theory 2067 01:13:39,990 --> 01:13:37,840 themselves are projections from some 2068 01:13:40,950 --> 01:13:40,000 deeper structure of reality 2069 01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:40,960 and 2070 01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:43,920 if consciousness is the ultimate bedrock 2071 01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:45,360 of reality 2072 01:13:48,470 --> 01:13:46,960 and that 2073 01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:48,480 what we experience as our physical 2074 01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:50,000 reality is more like a dreamscape 2075 01:13:53,030 --> 01:13:51,360 because i'll remind people again when 2076 01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:53,040 you're in a dream everything feels real 2077 01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:55,120 when you knock on a desk it feels solid 2078 01:13:59,270 --> 01:13:57,120 even though you know it's all supposedly 2079 01:14:00,950 --> 01:13:59,280 phenomenal being generated in a 2080 01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:00,960 mentation process 2081 01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,199 i'm saying that's what reality is so we 2082 01:14:08,229 --> 01:14:05,679 have you know a multitude of 2083 01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,239 interpenetrating dreamscapes 2084 01:14:12,149 --> 01:14:10,800 and just like you can actually have two 2085 01:14:14,630 --> 01:14:12,159 human beings 2086 01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:14,640 who can lucid dream and experience 2087 01:14:18,149 --> 01:14:16,800 together so they're both lying in 2088 01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:18,159 separate beds they could be on separate 2089 01:14:22,709 --> 01:14:21,440 continents even and choose to meet up 2090 01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:22,719 and develop this skill where they can 2091 01:14:26,550 --> 01:14:24,320 have a lucid dream together in a 2092 01:14:29,110 --> 01:14:26,560 dreamscape i'm saying in the same way 2093 01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:29,120 these others can penetrate our 2094 01:14:34,950 --> 01:14:32,960 dreamscape that we think is all there is 2095 01:14:36,550 --> 01:14:34,960 and and interact with us and i'm saying 2096 01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:36,560 this is happening 2097 01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:39,040 over and over and over again in many 2098 01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:41,120 many layers with many many different 2099 01:14:47,669 --> 01:14:44,640 agents and to add to that complexity 2100 01:14:49,590 --> 01:14:47,679 our consensus reality that is is rigid 2101 01:14:50,790 --> 01:14:49,600 because we all tend to believe a certain 2102 01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,800 thing 2103 01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:52,800 but as more and more of the ufo 2104 01:14:57,030 --> 01:14:54,000 phenomenon 2105 01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,040 you know dials up that begins to break 2106 01:15:01,830 --> 01:14:59,520 down that consensus reality which makes 2107 01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:01,840 that membrane all the more porous which 2108 01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:04,080 allows for more and more penetration 2109 01:15:07,910 --> 01:15:05,600 into our reality from these other 2110 01:15:10,390 --> 01:15:07,920 realities which just you know creates 2111 01:15:12,550 --> 01:15:10,400 this kind of spiral where 2112 01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:12,560 eventually it 2113 01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:14,159 just like you said earlier the stuff 2114 01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:16,400 that squeezes out of the suitcase right 2115 01:15:20,790 --> 01:15:18,320 eventually you have no choice but to 2116 01:15:22,790 --> 01:15:20,800 completely rethink your model of reality 2117 01:15:25,669 --> 01:15:22,800 because the outlier data suddenly is 2118 01:15:27,350 --> 01:15:25,679 everywhere 2119 01:15:29,350 --> 01:15:27,360 yeah 2120 01:15:30,550 --> 01:15:29,360 well and that's for me why 2121 01:15:32,470 --> 01:15:30,560 uh 2122 01:15:34,709 --> 01:15:32,480 i i continue to come back to this notion 2123 01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:34,719 that 2124 01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:35,679 you know 2125 01:15:39,510 --> 01:15:37,679 a hyper focus on 2126 01:15:40,950 --> 01:15:39,520 ufos and 2127 01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:40,960 you know the nuts and bolts and the 2128 01:15:44,790 --> 01:15:42,719 craft and the you know the crash 2129 01:15:46,790 --> 01:15:44,800 retrieval program or whatever it is that 2130 01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:46,800 is the flavor of the day 2131 01:15:50,310 --> 01:15:47,920 that the 2132 01:15:51,669 --> 01:15:50,320 kind of hive mind of ufology seems to 2133 01:15:52,630 --> 01:15:51,679 fixate on 2134 01:15:59,350 --> 01:15:52,640 that 2135 01:16:00,709 --> 01:15:59,360 level i think it certainly helps us to 2136 01:16:02,149 --> 01:16:00,719 i would argue 2137 01:16:04,630 --> 01:16:02,159 the 2138 01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:04,640 normalization of those 2139 01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:07,120 realities is a good thing for 2140 01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:09,440 uh you know kind of us generally all 2141 01:16:13,510 --> 01:16:11,360 that's you know fine and well 2142 01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:13,520 but really at the end of the day it's 2143 01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:15,600 it's it's important what's more 2144 01:16:19,669 --> 01:16:17,280 important are kind of the things which 2145 01:16:21,510 --> 01:16:19,679 have always been important uh in in 2146 01:16:24,950 --> 01:16:21,520 human life and that is 2147 01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:24,960 you know how we understand who we are 2148 01:16:29,110 --> 01:16:27,840 uh the the life of the mind 2149 01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:29,120 the 2150 01:16:45,030 --> 01:16:43,120 experience but really what this is 2151 01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:45,040 telling us is that we want to take that 2152 01:16:49,990 --> 01:16:47,520 further you know we want to take 2153 01:16:51,110 --> 01:16:50,000 those practices many of which have been 2154 01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:51,120 owned 2155 01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:53,760 in uh so many uh 2156 01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:55,920 wonderful spiritual traditions 2157 01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:57,840 in human history and and really take 2158 01:17:02,310 --> 01:16:59,840 them further you know kind of it's it's 2159 01:17:04,550 --> 01:17:02,320 redeeming and reclaiming practices of 2160 01:17:06,470 --> 01:17:04,560 the past things that we talked about at 2161 01:17:08,870 --> 01:17:06,480 the beginning of this show you know the 2162 01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:08,880 shamanic tradition and religious 2163 01:17:14,070 --> 01:17:11,280 tradition and you know certain aspects 2164 01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:14,080 of those practices reclaiming them and 2165 01:17:18,310 --> 01:17:17,040 incorporating them into a new more full 2166 01:17:20,070 --> 01:17:18,320 awareness 2167 01:17:21,750 --> 01:17:20,080 of what reality 2168 01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:21,760 actually is 2169 01:17:27,030 --> 01:17:24,000 you know and that is that it is grander 2170 01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:27,040 and in in scope and depth than we can 2171 01:17:31,830 --> 01:17:28,320 imagine 2172 01:17:33,750 --> 01:17:31,840 and we we play a small part in that 2173 01:17:36,550 --> 01:17:33,760 but at the same time we play 2174 01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:36,560 uh the the part you know we we are we 2175 01:17:43,030 --> 01:17:40,159 are a a piece but but but also the whole 2176 01:17:44,950 --> 01:17:43,040 you know that recognition of that uh in 2177 01:17:47,430 --> 01:17:44,960 my opinion that truth 2178 01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:47,440 really does create transformative 2179 01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:48,560 behavior 2180 01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:49,360 um 2181 01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:51,840 and an incredible insight 2182 01:17:55,030 --> 01:17:53,440 into 2183 01:17:57,750 --> 01:17:55,040 not only 2184 01:17:59,830 --> 01:17:57,760 you know this experience of now but 2185 01:18:02,550 --> 01:17:59,840 experiences of the past the future you 2186 01:18:03,750 --> 01:18:02,560 know and everything in between 2187 01:18:05,350 --> 01:18:03,760 i feel like we're moving in that 2188 01:18:08,070 --> 01:18:05,360 direction at least a lot of this 2189 01:18:09,750 --> 01:18:08,080 conversation is 2190 01:18:10,790 --> 01:18:09,760 and i'm hoping that those that listen to 2191 01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:10,800 the show 2192 01:18:13,830 --> 01:18:12,400 you know are kind of starting to catch 2193 01:18:16,790 --> 01:18:13,840 that a little bit 2194 01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:16,800 that while we are both really interested 2195 01:18:20,950 --> 01:18:18,640 in ufos and 2196 01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:20,960 you know we we love the the sort of 2197 01:18:25,270 --> 01:18:22,800 revelatory nuggets as much as the next 2198 01:18:26,630 --> 01:18:25,280 person and we we look at the you know 2199 01:18:29,510 --> 01:18:26,640 the news and 2200 01:18:31,110 --> 01:18:29,520 we hope for some some big revelations uh 2201 01:18:32,390 --> 01:18:31,120 from the government just like everybody 2202 01:18:35,350 --> 01:18:32,400 else does 2203 01:18:37,430 --> 01:18:35,360 but i i don't want folks to confuse our 2204 01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:37,440 interest in that aspect of this topic 2205 01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:39,360 for what what i think both of us would 2206 01:18:45,830 --> 01:18:43,199 agree is the deeper more meaningful 2207 01:18:47,910 --> 01:18:45,840 uh pursuit you know and that is uh the 2208 01:18:50,709 --> 01:18:47,920 nature of consciousness and reality and 2209 01:18:54,229 --> 01:18:50,719 our our role within all of that 2210 01:18:55,430 --> 01:18:54,239 yeah i agree and i think 2211 01:18:58,149 --> 01:18:55,440 that gets 2212 01:19:01,270 --> 01:18:58,159 you know to to a lot of the root of 2213 01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:01,280 some of the revelations i've had is that 2214 01:19:05,510 --> 01:19:03,120 this the you know i use this expression 2215 01:19:07,590 --> 01:19:05,520 manifestation engine when i was making a 2216 01:19:09,030 --> 01:19:07,600 tweet on the weekend and 2217 01:19:10,310 --> 01:19:09,040 um 2218 01:19:12,229 --> 01:19:10,320 you know this 2219 01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:12,239 these iterations of consciousness you 2220 01:19:15,669 --> 01:19:14,239 know the experiment of consciousness the 2221 01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:15,679 experiment of 2222 01:19:19,590 --> 01:19:17,600 you know the god intelligence uh 2223 01:19:21,030 --> 01:19:19,600 dividing over and over again and 2224 01:19:23,270 --> 01:19:21,040 experiencing 2225 01:19:25,590 --> 01:19:23,280 uh novel experience 2226 01:19:26,709 --> 01:19:25,600 and to do that it needs to 2227 01:19:29,189 --> 01:19:26,719 you know 2228 01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:29,199 create these little selves that that can 2229 01:19:32,229 --> 01:19:30,320 have 2230 01:19:34,550 --> 01:19:32,239 novel experience because they are you 2231 01:19:37,510 --> 01:19:34,560 know now in a new situation but then 2232 01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:37,520 ultimately feed that back into 2233 01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:39,760 the the central intelligence so that the 2234 01:19:43,030 --> 01:19:41,520 entire thing moves forward and iterates 2235 01:19:44,630 --> 01:19:43,040 again and it keeps 2236 01:19:46,630 --> 01:19:44,640 going like that in a kind of a dynamic 2237 01:19:49,189 --> 01:19:46,640 system but it's it's not a 2238 01:19:51,030 --> 01:19:49,199 it's not a mechanism it's an organism 2239 01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:51,040 right and 2240 01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:53,760 it's alive and 2241 01:19:58,229 --> 01:19:55,840 that's as much true for the ufo 2242 01:19:59,910 --> 01:19:58,239 phenomenon as it is for everything else 2243 01:20:01,110 --> 01:19:59,920 we've been saying and 2244 01:20:02,229 --> 01:20:01,120 so for me 2245 01:20:03,350 --> 01:20:02,239 um 2246 01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:03,360 you know the same way you can go to 2247 01:20:06,630 --> 01:20:05,360 certain cultures around the world 2248 01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:06,640 especially if you've lived in one 2249 01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:08,320 culture your entire life 2250 01:20:11,430 --> 01:20:09,920 you can have culture shock when you go 2251 01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:11,440 to a different country 2252 01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:13,120 and these are still human beings right 2253 01:20:18,709 --> 01:20:16,000 these are homo sapien sapiens who 2254 01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:18,719 all come from the same tribe initially 2255 01:20:21,750 --> 01:20:20,320 but over time 2256 01:20:23,590 --> 01:20:21,760 some real differences at least 2257 01:20:25,030 --> 01:20:23,600 superficially develop 2258 01:20:26,229 --> 01:20:25,040 and i'm saying that's true for these 2259 01:20:28,950 --> 01:20:26,239 others as well 2260 01:20:31,830 --> 01:20:28,960 um and but ultimately we're all on the 2261 01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:31,840 same cycle on the same circle of life 2262 01:20:37,430 --> 01:20:33,360 whether it's alien beings or human 2263 01:20:41,830 --> 01:20:39,830 i love that i think that that's 2264 01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:41,840 really powerful because 2265 01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:48,070 give us something that unites all of us 2266 01:20:52,390 --> 01:20:50,880 you know it it helps change the the 2267 01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:52,400 framework from 2268 01:20:55,990 --> 01:20:54,719 uh these these other beings being truly 2269 01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:56,000 alien 2270 01:21:02,630 --> 01:21:00,239 uh to being just other expressions 2271 01:21:05,590 --> 01:21:02,640 of this larger thing of which we are one 2272 01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:05,600 expression as well right they are 2273 01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:07,520 you know our cosmic sort of brothers and 2274 01:21:11,990 --> 01:21:09,679 sisters um 2275 01:21:12,830 --> 01:21:12,000 of that cosmic consciousness 2276 01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:12,840 and 2277 01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:15,520 um to me that 2278 01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:17,440 i don't know it makes it a lot more 2279 01:21:21,270 --> 01:21:19,920 relatable um it doesn't mean that it's 2280 01:21:22,870 --> 01:21:21,280 not scary 2281 01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:22,880 uh it doesn't mean that it doesn't have 2282 01:21:26,630 --> 01:21:24,880 danger um i think that's important to 2283 01:21:27,669 --> 01:21:26,640 point out you know we're not saying that 2284 01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:27,679 uh 2285 01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:31,120 it's all kind of kumbaya out there 2286 01:21:34,630 --> 01:21:33,280 just like it's not all kumbaya in the 2287 01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:34,640 human family 2288 01:21:38,870 --> 01:21:37,040 or even your own uh 2289 01:21:40,950 --> 01:21:38,880 you know body you know there's stuff 2290 01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:40,960 happening all the time destruction and 2291 01:21:46,310 --> 01:21:43,360 birth and whatnot and 2292 01:21:48,550 --> 01:21:46,320 i think that's just being realistic um 2293 01:21:50,950 --> 01:21:48,560 but there's meaning in all of it right 2294 01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:50,960 and and i think that there is 2295 01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:55,669 the macro awareness of that conscious 2296 01:22:00,629 --> 01:21:58,719 that larger consciousness 2297 01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:00,639 you know essentially means that 2298 01:22:06,790 --> 01:22:03,360 none of it is forgotten you know 2299 01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:06,800 that that every single uh experience 2300 01:22:10,709 --> 01:22:08,719 within the cosmic whole 2301 01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:10,719 is valid and important in some form or 2302 01:22:13,270 --> 01:22:11,760 fashion 2303 01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:13,280 you know there may be there may be a 2304 01:22:17,590 --> 01:22:14,719 kind of uh 2305 01:22:20,870 --> 01:22:17,600 tilos or whatever a trajectory 2306 01:22:22,470 --> 01:22:20,880 that that it is uh aiming toward 2307 01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:22,480 um 2308 01:22:26,629 --> 01:22:24,480 at the same time 2309 01:22:30,070 --> 01:22:26,639 i tend to think that uh 2310 01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:30,080 it both aims toward and aims back down 2311 01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:31,920 at the same time you know there is this 2312 01:22:34,850 --> 01:22:33,120 kind of 2313 01:22:37,510 --> 01:22:34,860 you know fluid 2314 01:22:40,229 --> 01:22:37,520 [Music] 2315 01:22:41,189 --> 01:22:40,239 transition between the individual and 2316 01:22:42,790 --> 01:22:41,199 the whole 2317 01:22:45,430 --> 01:22:42,800 and that and that it's important that 2318 01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:45,440 that dynamism exists 2319 01:22:50,070 --> 01:22:47,760 and will always exist 2320 01:22:51,910 --> 01:22:50,080 yeah and i think um you know sometimes 2321 01:22:53,510 --> 01:22:51,920 the way that is described is through the 2322 01:22:56,470 --> 01:22:53,520 simultaneous 2323 01:22:58,790 --> 01:22:56,480 or co-rising processes of evolution and 2324 01:23:03,189 --> 01:22:58,800 involution right and 2325 01:23:06,790 --> 01:23:04,709 i think that the same way that we 2326 01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:06,800 experience seasons of nature 2327 01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:08,320 you know and we 2328 01:23:12,470 --> 01:23:10,719 in seasons of life and we 2329 01:23:14,550 --> 01:23:12,480 something really vibrant about that 2330 01:23:16,629 --> 01:23:14,560 that's really central to the human 2331 01:23:18,390 --> 01:23:16,639 experience i would say that's true of 2332 01:23:19,189 --> 01:23:18,400 just experience across the cosmos you 2333 01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:19,199 know 2334 01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:21,840 and might even expand out as wide as you 2335 01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:23,440 know a cosmos 2336 01:23:27,590 --> 01:23:25,760 uh expanding out and then drawing 2337 01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:27,600 together and doing that all over again 2338 01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:29,600 kind of thing 2339 01:23:33,110 --> 01:23:32,000 but another thing that comes to mind 2340 01:23:34,629 --> 01:23:33,120 that relates to what we were talking 2341 01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:34,639 about earlier with nation states and 2342 01:23:37,629 --> 01:23:36,239 whatnot and 2343 01:23:39,990 --> 01:23:37,639 um 2344 01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:40,000 hunter-gatherers who gathered together 2345 01:23:45,030 --> 01:23:42,639 and then formed you know city-states and 2346 01:23:48,310 --> 01:23:45,040 began to form civilizations 2347 01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:50,470 what we do see over time and i would say 2348 01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:52,639 this is true across the board so this is 2349 01:23:57,350 --> 01:23:55,280 true of alien intelligences as well as 2350 01:23:59,990 --> 01:23:57,360 human intelligences 2351 01:24:02,790 --> 01:24:00,000 and that is this this notion of ever 2352 01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:02,800 increasing circles of belonging right 2353 01:24:08,149 --> 01:24:05,360 circles of identity right so we 2354 01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,159 um there are many people now who 2355 01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:10,239 identify more as citizens of planet 2356 01:24:14,870 --> 01:24:12,800 earth and maybe even members of all 2357 01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:14,880 sentient beings you know 2358 01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:17,120 a member of that that organization or 2359 01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:18,320 that group 2360 01:24:21,350 --> 01:24:19,520 um 2361 01:24:23,270 --> 01:24:21,360 rather than the nation states or even 2362 01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:23,280 potent you know potentially an earthling 2363 01:24:25,750 --> 01:24:24,480 you know there 2364 01:24:28,830 --> 01:24:25,760 there are people within the ufo 2365 01:24:31,430 --> 01:24:28,840 phenomenon who have experiences 2366 01:24:33,350 --> 01:24:31,440 of themselves as being more than just 2367 01:24:35,910 --> 01:24:33,360 this iteration right i've had that 2368 01:24:37,110 --> 01:24:35,920 experience and so it changes how you 2369 01:24:39,430 --> 01:24:37,120 think about 2370 01:24:40,709 --> 01:24:39,440 what you are and what we are what we 2371 01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:40,719 means right 2372 01:24:44,310 --> 01:24:42,000 um 2373 01:24:46,070 --> 01:24:44,320 and it's interesting i think of how some 2374 01:24:48,870 --> 01:24:46,080 people will say 2375 01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:48,880 along those lines of you know this this 2376 01:24:53,830 --> 01:24:51,040 move over time towards ever 2377 01:24:55,030 --> 01:24:53,840 more expansive circles of inclusion 2378 01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:55,040 they'll say i don't know we should use 2379 01:24:59,270 --> 01:24:56,719 this term alien for these others because 2380 01:25:01,350 --> 01:24:59,280 it sounds kind of you know negative uh 2381 01:25:03,189 --> 01:25:01,360 the connotation 2382 01:25:05,189 --> 01:25:03,199 what's ironic is i i will sometimes say 2383 01:25:07,750 --> 01:25:05,199 to people that at its root that word 2384 01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:07,760 just really means other right but to 2385 01:25:12,470 --> 01:25:10,080 some some degree other is a problematic 2386 01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:12,480 word because whenever we define an other 2387 01:25:18,149 --> 01:25:16,080 it sets up an us versus them situation 2388 01:25:19,990 --> 01:25:18,159 i remember a friend of mine had a had a 2389 01:25:22,149 --> 01:25:20,000 band in high school 2390 01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:22,159 that took a certain translation of a 2391 01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:24,320 certain phrase from the old testament 2392 01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:26,560 and this is often not translated this 2393 01:25:30,229 --> 01:25:27,679 way in english but in this one 2394 01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:30,239 particular edition it was translated as 2395 01:25:34,310 --> 01:25:32,800 the alien and the psycho and so they 2396 01:25:36,149 --> 01:25:34,320 actually had the band called alien and 2397 01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:36,159 the psycho based on this one passage in 2398 01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:37,679 the old testament based on that 2399 01:25:42,070 --> 01:25:40,560 particular translation of the hebrew 2400 01:25:44,870 --> 01:25:42,080 and 2401 01:25:49,030 --> 01:25:44,880 in that context actually alien 2402 01:25:53,350 --> 01:25:50,950 and we're talking about like the people 2403 01:25:55,669 --> 01:25:53,360 over the hill that are human beings 2404 01:25:58,870 --> 01:25:55,679 they were considered alien right because 2405 01:26:00,470 --> 01:25:58,880 again then the definition of us was so 2406 01:26:02,390 --> 01:26:00,480 narrow at that time 2407 01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:02,400 and if you look at the history of our 2408 01:26:07,750 --> 01:26:04,719 civilization it's been a march towards 2409 01:26:09,910 --> 01:26:07,760 an ever expanding circle of inclusion 2410 01:26:11,030 --> 01:26:09,920 and i think part of the the journey that 2411 01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:11,040 we're on 2412 01:26:14,629 --> 01:26:13,040 with this phenomenon really those of us 2413 01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:14,639 who are in love with the mystery who are 2414 01:26:18,709 --> 01:26:17,040 fascinated by it is understanding that 2415 01:26:21,669 --> 01:26:18,719 circle of inclusion 2416 01:26:23,189 --> 01:26:21,679 is multi-dimensional in nature and may 2417 01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:23,199 involve even 2418 01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:25,040 iterations of ourselves that are much 2419 01:26:29,669 --> 01:26:27,760 more complex and multifaceted than what 2420 01:26:31,510 --> 01:26:29,679 we experience in this one 2421 01:26:34,870 --> 01:26:31,520 finite body in this one particular 2422 01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:39,270 love it fantastic well i think that uh 2423 01:26:42,470 --> 01:26:40,639 probably gets us to the end of this 2424 01:26:45,110 --> 01:26:42,480 episode it's been uh 2425 01:26:47,830 --> 01:26:45,120 to me a meaningful conversation 2426 01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:47,840 as we've explored these contours uh of 2427 01:26:52,950 --> 01:26:51,520 how the phenomena has impacted our our 2428 01:26:55,350 --> 01:26:52,960 human family 2429 01:26:57,030 --> 01:26:55,360 uh through through history and in the 2430 01:26:59,030 --> 01:26:57,040 present and and looking ahead to the 2431 01:27:01,030 --> 01:26:59,040 future 2432 01:27:03,990 --> 01:27:01,040 i know there's a lot of 2433 01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:04,000 uncertainty just as futures often seem 2434 01:27:07,270 --> 01:27:05,520 to bring 2435 01:27:08,790 --> 01:27:07,280 there's a lot of anxiety about what may 2436 01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:08,800 lie ahead 2437 01:27:13,270 --> 01:27:10,560 but i think 2438 01:27:15,030 --> 01:27:13,280 to me at least these insights give me a 2439 01:27:18,790 --> 01:27:15,040 sense of peace with that 2440 01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:18,800 that no matter the turmoil that may come 2441 01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:20,639 it does not change some fundamental 2442 01:27:22,709 --> 01:27:21,920 truths 2443 01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:22,719 and 2444 01:27:29,350 --> 01:27:25,600 the way in which we are really connected 2445 01:27:30,870 --> 01:27:29,360 to one another and to these others 2446 01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:30,880 in in much the same way that we are 2447 01:27:38,950 --> 01:27:35,830 that's a 2448 01:27:40,390 --> 01:27:38,960 that gives me a great deal of comfort 2449 01:27:41,910 --> 01:27:40,400 i hope it does to those who are 2450 01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:41,920 listening as well 2451 01:27:45,510 --> 01:27:43,920 so we'll conclude the show with our 2452 01:27:48,310 --> 01:27:45,520 benediction 2453 01:27:51,270 --> 01:27:48,320 may the quality of our questions shaped 2454 01:27:53,270 --> 01:27:51,280 by a desire for understanding enhance 2455 01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:53,280 our journey of discovery 2456 01:27:57,669 --> 01:27:55,360 and may our travels broaden the sphere 2457 01:28:01,270 --> 01:27:57,679 of our consciousness reminding us that 2458 01:28:04,310 --> 01:28:01,280 new discoveries beget new horizons 2459 01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:04,320 as always adventure awaits we'll see you 2460 01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:12,050 [Music] 2461 01:28:19,940 --> 01:28:13,650 [Laughter]